Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine.
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And this is a
program designed to bring you
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really the up-to-date insights.
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All that I can bring to bear
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on the topic of
religious liberty
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and current world developments.
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My guest on the program
also has the name Steed,
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my son Christopher,
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it's not your first
time, but thank you, son.
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And I want to go back
to our shared experience,
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not too many years ago.
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Remember, I took you
and the rest of the family
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to a tour of Israel.
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Remember that?
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You remember one of the scenes
that really stuck in my mind,
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we took a bus up
to Golan Heights,
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and at the top
of the Golan Heights
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you could look down more down
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than along to the sea of Galilee
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and the events
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that happened
in Jesus' ministry.
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By the way, you know, I
like the Messiah, right?
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Yeah. Musical Messiah.
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You only have...
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At least 20, 30 versions.
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Yeah, at least.
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And one of them
has a painting by...
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Ah, I can't remember.
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A famous painter.
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Very famous
surrealist of that same scene
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where Jesus is on the cross.
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And you're looking down past
His body hanging on the cross,
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almost straight
down to the fishermen
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on the sea of Galilee.
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Is this the vinyl one?
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Yes.
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And that's almost the vision
we got from the Golan Heights,
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but what do you
remember the other direction?
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Looking out over
the Golan Heights?
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Desert. Yes.
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But remember that was
the direction to Syria.
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Oh, yeah.
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And we saw where
the ISIS at the time,
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it destroyed a
few mosques in that,
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and we couldn't see it that day,
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but they said it was
only a few tens of miles.
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And on a very clear day,
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you could see the
other suburbs of Damascus.
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And you can see fighting.
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Yes.
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Well, we saw the
destruction of the mosques.
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So, you know, very small world
and it made it very real to me.
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And remember in the Bible,
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what was the key moment in Saul
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who then became the
Apostle Paul's life?
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What was the key moment,
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he spoke about
the rest of his life?
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When he was on
the road to Damascus?
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Yeah, the Damascus road. Yeah.
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So doesn't that give you...
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I was trying to figure
out where you're trying
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to get with that thing.
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Doesn't that give you
a new meaning of that,
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you know, to go from Israel,
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you know, that
wasn't the modern state,
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but certainly the
sea of Galilee was what,
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only a little, a
day's walk from Jerusalem.
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That was where Israel was.
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And he's on the Damascus
road, that's just not far away,
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just over the hills,
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on the plain
heading toward Damascus.
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And what happened on the road?
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Man, I can't
remember the story now.
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He's fighting his forces.
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He was writing of course,
and then blinding white light,
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and then he had fish
scales put over his eyes.
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That he heard a
voice. He heard a voice.
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I don't remember
what the voice said.
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It's been a while
since this I heard the story.
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The voice of the
Lord and it says Saul,
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Saul why are you persecuting Me?
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And later in life,
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when he was before a
king and the Bible says,
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and Adventists have told
themselves from the beginning,
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we had gone to stand,
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maybe even now,
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but at some point
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we'll likely have to
stand before kings and princes
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and give a reason for our faith.
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You have to have
it sort of implanted.
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So you have a reason,
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you can't say, well,
I sort of felt like it.
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No, you know, I'm doing this.
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And what did he say
before Agrippa, I think it was,
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he says I was not disobedient
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to that heavenly vision.
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And on religious liberty,
I've come to the conclusion,
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you know, it's not
going to happen automatically.
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If you really
have a heavenly vision,
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you won't even know
when you're being restricted
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and where I'm taking this,
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you wondering
where this is going,
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aren't you so?
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A little bit.
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Remember in another program
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we talked about
the COVID emergency
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and the restrictions.
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I do.
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I really think way
too many Christians
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haven't sort of
thought it through.
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That here is a lost opportunity,
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they just
thought about the danger.
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Yeah.
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And dangers are real.
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You've heard me speak about
pilgrim's progress a few times.
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I heard through it
with you a few times.
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Did you ever read Corbis Fergus?
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I know when you were
with. Yeah, I have the book.
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Yes.
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When you were
with the core program,
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I gave you a copy thinking
you might be studying it.
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Did you ever study
it? Yeah, I read it.
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I still have it in my room.
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Didn't it strike you as,
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in fact I always get shivers
thinking about the book is
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when I was about eight years old
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or bit younger than eight,
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walking to school,
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I was stopped
one day with a tent
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erected in an empty block.
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And there was a guy calling kids
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to come in and see this program.
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It was before TV
was really common
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and they had slides,
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pictures of knights and
dragons and all the rest.
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It was a story of pilgrim
making his way to heaven.
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I have my, the one I
have has the pictures in it
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and I see some of the pictures
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and I was like, hey,
I remember that story.
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Yeah.
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And, you know,
it's a real battle.
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You're fighting
against something.
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And in many ways,
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I think we've figured
we've gone through literally
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what was figured if in Pilgrim,
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because they were
lions at one point,
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intimidating him from the way.
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Another time doubting
castle and giant despair,
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he'd personified the things
that we have to deal with.
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Like you doubt that
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the Christianity
is worth fighting for,
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but if you have this
awareness that Christian had it.
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Because he says,
once I cannot do this,
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I'm on the king's way.
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And without his business,
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I'm going to the celestial city.
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So when you have that awareness,
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you understand that
someone standing in your way
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is not just going
to make you divert,
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but they're stopping you
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from doing what you're
under compulsion to do.
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And it's restriction
on your civil liberty,
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your religious liberty,
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your obligation to
serve and to witness for God.
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And I think this is a
good time for Christians
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to remind themselves.
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And in the last
program that we did together,
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you know, you
discussed how exciting it was
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going
door-to-door, selling books
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and practicing
witnessing door-to-door.
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If you'd never gone there
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you'd have missed
that wonderful opportunity.
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Yeah, totally.
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And yet an awful lot
of our fellow Christians,
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even some
Seventh-day Adventists,
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you know, they were told
it's dangerous to go out there
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as the old
medieval maps used to say
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at the edge of the ocean,
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they say here be the
monsters and dragons.
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I won't get in there. It's true.
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Right, isn't it? It's true.
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So we need to
sort of go do and dare.
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Yeah.
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Have you seen me
reading this book?
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I've seen you reading
it while you're driving.
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Yeah, sometimes.
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I shouldn't say that.
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We don't want the
traffic authorities
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to be watching this program.
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No, I've seen you read that.
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But I find it
hard to put a book down
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and maybe I've glanced at
it while we'd been driving.
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No, whenever we, actually,
while we were driving up here
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while I was
driving at one point,
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I remember you
reading through that.
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I remember we, I remember
when you bought that book.
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I've got to tell
a story, tell it.
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We were at a...
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You need to
listen to that carefully.
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No, I remembered,
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no I was there
when you bought it.
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No. Yeah.
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What happened?
I'll tell you the story.
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It was, you've come
with me on a few trips.
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And the last trip
that we went together on
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just before COVID really hit.
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Are you talking
about the one we went to...
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To Washington state.
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Oh, yeah.
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But the trip before that
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was where things started to
go south in the U.S on COVID.
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And I was in San
Francisco by myself.
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And while I was there,
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uh, the cases
started multiplying.
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They started
putting restrictions on
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and it was obvious that
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that things were just
getting bad by the moment.
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And so I walked from my
hotel under the freeway.
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I was near the freeway,
near the San Francisco airport.
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And I walked under the freeway,
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looking for a
place to buy some food,
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just to sort of
get away from it.
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I didn't even
like being in the foyer
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around a lot of people.
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And the area was in,
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I don't think it
was high to Asbury,
00:09:08.34\00:09:09.68
but it was sort of like that.
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It was old style with
stalls out front and so on
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and a lot of people
around and that bothered me.
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And I remember looking
in the window of a subway
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and back then,
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well, I shouldn't have named it,
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but there were all the fixings.
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And back then
they hadn't yet thought
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to put plastic shields.
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I'm thinking there's a
lot of stuff drifting down
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and this I can't
buy something like that.
00:09:34.97\00:09:37.87
So where can I go
that there's nobody?
00:09:37.91\00:09:39.91
So a few doors down
there was a used bookstore
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and I looked in the
window and nobody went inside.
00:09:43.61\00:09:46.38
There was one other
person in the whole store.
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So it was pretty
safe environment.
00:09:48.62\00:09:50.15
So I started looking
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and I love
looking at books anyhow,
00:09:51.55\00:09:52.95
and I see this,
the coming plague.
00:09:52.99\00:09:56.96
And at that time it was sort of,
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I think there was overreaction,
00:09:58.69\00:10:00.03
but for all we know
00:10:00.06\00:10:02.83
within days
00:10:02.86\00:10:04.20
they were going to send
carts through the streets.
00:10:04.23\00:10:06.03
Like you study this in
history, what used to happen?
00:10:06.07\00:10:08.64
Bring out your dead.
00:10:08.67\00:10:10.01
Bring out your
dead during the plague.
00:10:10.04\00:10:11.91
That was so many people dying
00:10:11.94\00:10:14.04
and nobody wanted to
go in and touch the dead.
00:10:14.08\00:10:17.18
They obviously didn't have
places to put them, really.
00:10:17.21\00:10:18.78
And I was reading
recently again just can't.
00:10:18.81\00:10:20.92
And the same time as
his armies were sweeping
00:10:20.95\00:10:22.98
from Asia across
Europe, they hit on
00:10:23.02\00:10:26.65
because they were
dying with the plague.
00:10:26.69\00:10:28.22
They hit on a new a
weapon with the catapults.
00:10:28.26\00:10:31.93
They would catapult
00:10:31.96\00:10:33.29
the bodies of the
dead soldiers into a city.
00:10:33.33\00:10:35.43
And you told me about this.
00:10:35.46\00:10:36.80
And by the time that
had percolated a bit,
00:10:36.83\00:10:39.77
people were dying.
00:10:39.80\00:10:41.14
The gates pretty
much would fall open
00:10:41.17\00:10:42.94
and they'd go in
00:10:42.97\00:10:44.51
and they would be scared
out of their minds or dead.
00:10:44.54\00:10:47.01
And they'd conquer the city.
00:10:47.04\00:10:49.91
So a plague wasn't an
extraordinary possibility
00:10:49.94\00:10:52.65
at that time.
00:10:52.68\00:10:54.02
Now we're
starting to get comfortable
00:10:54.05\00:10:55.55
and probably that's when
00:10:55.58\00:10:56.92
the infections
will come back on us,
00:10:56.95\00:10:58.92
but human beings have
endured a lot of things.
00:10:58.95\00:11:01.26
And as I read this book,
00:11:01.29\00:11:03.73
which was written in '94.
00:11:03.76\00:11:07.53
Just four years
before I was born.
00:11:07.56\00:11:08.96
I was about to say that,
that's ancient history for you,
00:11:09.00\00:11:12.73
written in '94
00:11:12.77\00:11:14.30
the year I remember pretty well.
00:11:14.34\00:11:16.81
Back when, when Ebola was
troubling the world a bit,
00:11:16.84\00:11:22.04
but not yet, has it
really escaped from Africa
00:11:22.08\00:11:25.31
where it
destroys whole villages.
00:11:25.35\00:11:27.85
And so this girl
told the experience
00:11:27.88\00:11:30.09
in particular of the scientists
trying to uncover the origins
00:11:30.12\00:11:33.56
and control of Ebola.
00:11:33.59\00:11:35.39
It spoke to about the
effects of global warming
00:11:35.42\00:11:38.56
with people,
00:11:38.59\00:11:40.50
Most people
don't think about this
00:11:40.53\00:11:41.86
as the weather patterns change
00:11:41.90\00:11:43.43
and say the warmer
climate moves north,
00:11:43.47\00:11:46.00
further north or further south
00:11:46.03\00:11:48.97
with it come the
things like mosquitoes
00:11:49.00\00:11:51.54
and other bugs
that carry diseases.
00:11:51.57\00:11:54.18
So diseases inexorably spread,
00:11:54.21\00:11:57.05
West Nile virus
in Washington, DC,
00:11:57.08\00:11:59.38
where we live in that area.
00:11:59.41\00:12:00.95
That's just
because of global warming.
00:12:00.98\00:12:03.72
Not to mention
plagues, not plagues,
00:12:03.75\00:12:05.89
the planes with
people traveling,
00:12:05.92\00:12:08.26
carrying stuff around.
00:12:08.29\00:12:09.62
So as the title said,
00:12:09.66\00:12:11.09
it gave clear
evidence of the coming plague.
00:12:11.13\00:12:16.16
And what other
evidence can you think of,
00:12:16.20\00:12:18.63
another book that we've spoken
a few times on this program?
00:12:18.67\00:12:20.57
Great Controversy.
00:12:20.60\00:12:22.24
Yes, but the Bible
speaks sort of graphically
00:12:22.27\00:12:26.24
about a few end time plagues.
00:12:26.27\00:12:28.21
That's a clear characteristic
just before the end
00:12:28.24\00:12:32.41
"end of the old world
00:12:32.45\00:12:33.78
and the
beginning of the new world,
00:12:33.82\00:12:35.32
Christ's eternal kingdom."
00:12:35.35\00:12:37.25
So the lesson
I'm trying to make,
00:12:37.29\00:12:40.46
if you are waiting, viewers,
00:12:40.49\00:12:43.86
if you're waiting
00:12:43.89\00:12:46.03
for when this is all over
00:12:46.06\00:12:47.46
before you sally
forth to witness,
00:12:47.50\00:12:50.37
you might wait till
doom's day literally.
00:12:50.40\00:12:55.54
And we've got to be careful,
00:12:55.57\00:12:57.64
but we also have to be
true to that heavenly vision.
00:12:57.67\00:13:00.78
We've got, don't you think, son,
00:13:00.81\00:13:02.58
we're under some obligation.
00:13:02.61\00:13:04.51
Yeah. Some obligation.
00:13:04.55\00:13:06.55
There's a...
00:13:06.58\00:13:08.42
You've heard me
speak a few times.
00:13:08.45\00:13:09.78
And there's a sermon
that dates from the 1700s
00:13:09.82\00:13:14.39
given by Jonathan Edwards
00:13:14.42\00:13:17.83
and I've read history books
00:13:17.86\00:13:19.19
and they remember
him for the worst sermon.
00:13:19.23\00:13:20.80
He gave a sermon called
00:13:20.83\00:13:22.16
Sinners in the
Hands of an Angry God.
00:13:22.20\00:13:24.53
We don't want to be like that,
00:13:24.57\00:13:26.30
but actually that
mischaracterize him,
00:13:26.33\00:13:28.54
because the one
sermon of his that I read
00:13:28.57\00:13:30.71
the title was
00:13:30.74\00:13:32.54
The Expulsive
Power of a New Affection.
00:13:32.57\00:13:38.15
You know, you go through
like any one of your rights
00:13:38.18\00:13:41.28
of necessity or
not a necessity of,
00:13:41.32\00:13:45.79
it's just the way life is,
00:13:45.82\00:13:47.16
you go through one
interest after another, right?
00:13:47.19\00:13:50.86
And when you with
the latest interest,
00:13:50.89\00:13:52.79
you don't remember much about
the old affections, do you?
00:13:52.83\00:13:56.06
A new affection tends
to clean the slate largely,
00:13:56.10\00:14:00.10
and that's how
the human brain works.
00:14:00.14\00:14:02.34
And so if we've discovered
00:14:02.37\00:14:04.57
the excitement
of knowing the Lord
00:14:04.61\00:14:06.94
and the possibilities
of his eternal kingdom,
00:14:06.98\00:14:09.91
how could we
keep quiet about it?
00:14:09.94\00:14:11.68
I wouldn't. No.
00:14:11.71\00:14:13.15
I'm not.
00:14:13.18\00:14:14.52
So this is the lesson
00:14:14.55\00:14:15.88
I'm trying to
communicate in this program.
00:14:15.92\00:14:17.79
Religious liberty is
not a legal construct.
00:14:17.82\00:14:22.82
It's really
describing the dynamic
00:14:22.86\00:14:25.93
of how we do what we
cannot help but doing.
00:14:25.96\00:14:30.50
Speaking about
our religious faith,
00:14:30.53\00:14:32.40
it's something so
integral to be exciting.
00:14:32.43\00:14:34.27
Yeah.
00:14:34.30\00:14:35.64
And, of course,
facilitating that,
00:14:35.67\00:14:38.27
and sometimes in
places, direct persecution,
00:14:38.31\00:14:42.28
and you do it at
the cost of your life.
00:14:42.31\00:14:45.01
In our world at
the moment in the U.S
00:14:45.05\00:14:47.28
and the Western world,
00:14:47.32\00:14:49.05
generally it's easy,
00:14:49.08\00:14:50.42
but if you have problems,
00:14:50.45\00:14:51.79
you can usually
appeal to the law
00:14:51.82\00:14:53.15
and it'll clear your way.
00:14:53.19\00:14:54.82
That's what
Paul was trying to do
00:14:54.86\00:14:56.19
speaking to the Roman rulers.
00:14:56.22\00:14:59.03
He had certain
rights as a citizen,
00:14:59.06\00:15:00.60
and he felt that
he could use that
00:15:00.63\00:15:02.16
to extend his witness,
00:15:02.20\00:15:04.47
but not always so.
00:15:04.50\00:15:07.64
Let's take a short break.
00:15:07.67\00:15:09.67
We'll be back with my
guest, Christopher Steed.
00:15:09.70\00:15:12.47
Again, good last name.
00:15:12.51\00:15:15.21
Stay with us. We'll be back.
00:15:15.24\00:15:16.58