Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI210502A
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00:28 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:30 This is the program designed for you 00:33 and your interest in religious liberty, 00:35 because we're bound to present discussions, information, 00:38 and updates that bear on religious liberty in the U.S 00:42 and indeed around the world. 00:43 My name is Lincoln Steed, 00:45 22 years, editor of Liberty magazine, 00:48 and nearly as long on this program. 00:51 And my guest Ed Cooke, 00:54 a doctorate in church state studies from Baylor, 00:56 Seventh-day Adventist pastor, an author, 00:59 book reviewer, what else? 01:00 Where do we go? And lecturer. 01:02 Yes, lecturer, and you live in Texas, 01:04 but, that could be a plus or it could even be a negative. 01:08 Sure. But welcome to the program. 01:10 Well, thank you. 01:12 Ambassadors, I want to talk a bit about 01:15 embassies and ambassadors. 01:17 And it puts me to mind of my father dying 01:20 about 14 years ago now. 01:22 And as he was being wheeled off for his final surgery, 01:26 was they'd only given him about 10 minutes notice. 01:30 He said to the orderly who turned up with the gurney. 01:33 He says, do you know, he says, "I'm an ambassador." 01:36 The guy looks at him, "What am I, 01:37 how am I supposed to treat this ambassador, 01:38 this elevated person?" 01:40 And he says, "I'm an ambassador for heaven," 01:43 which we all are. 01:44 Amen. 01:46 So, at the end of the day, 01:47 that's the ultimate embassy and representation, 01:50 isn't it for a Christian or anyone of faith, 01:52 but particularly for a Christian. 01:54 True. 01:55 You know, as Paul says, 01:57 turning back to the Old Testament, 01:58 they looked for a land. 01:59 What is it, whose builder or a city 02:01 whose builder and maker was God, 02:02 you know, it's not this, 02:04 but, you know, some of the religious conflicts 02:08 of all the religious conflicts, I think none is more 02:11 insoluble apparently than 02:14 what's happening in the Middle East in Jerusalem. 02:17 And let's talk about something that happened. 02:19 We were trying to figure the year, 02:20 wasn't about 2017? 02:22 Correct. Yeah. 02:23 President Trump, 02:25 I can't say it was a good or a bad thing, 02:27 but it was a gutsy move. 02:30 He recognized Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. 02:34 Yes. And moved the US Embassy there. 02:37 So again, like you're mentioning whether good or bad 02:40 that's not so much the topic of discussion, 02:42 but more so 02:43 what are the religious ramifications 02:46 and how might that impact 02:48 church state relations aspects of national security 02:51 from Israel's perspective. 02:53 And, of course, the US in relation to that. 02:57 So, you know, one of the things as I did a little bit more 02:59 delving into and looking at the topic, 03:02 we do recognize that from an evangelical 03:05 Christian perspective, 03:07 many evangelicals that adopt the viewpoint 03:11 of prophecy being fulfilled from portions of Daniel 03:15 and some of the Book of Revelation as well. 03:18 They look at that kind of a move 03:21 on behalf of Israel as something that 03:23 is one of the necessary pieces 03:25 for prophecy to be fulfilled, i.e. 03:27 the United States supporting Israel 03:29 by having Jerusalem recognized 03:31 as the capital of the country and US as a major world player, 03:37 recognizing that and giving support 03:38 by moving our embassy there. 03:40 However, the other little details 03:43 that as I fine-tuned it, like 03:45 doing a little bit more research, 03:47 the eastern part of Jerusalem is where all of the holy sites 03:50 related to Bible prophecy are located, 03:53 and the US Embassy was actually moved 03:55 to the western part of Jerusalem 03:58 more like more modern Jerusalem. 04:00 It's a more grow, outgrowth of the modern era. 04:02 So technically it's not actually recognizing the... 04:06 The old city. 04:07 Correct. So that is one thing. 04:10 Very symbolic though. Yes. 04:11 Yeah, that much. 04:12 And the other thing I was going to mention along those lines, 04:15 it's interesting how that development took place 04:18 is that once President Trump 04:20 had been elected and was in office, 04:22 evangelicals began to appeal to him and put pressure, 04:26 but not from a religious perspective. 04:27 So in other words, 04:29 it's almost like they recognized 04:30 the principle of separation of church and state. 04:33 They didn't want to violate that 04:35 and therefore confound their plans. 04:37 So what they did is they focused on it 04:39 from the perspective of persuading Trump, 04:41 to see that kind of a move strategically 04:44 to strengthen US ties with Israel 04:47 and for Israeli security. 04:49 Basically they were saying, Israel is one 04:52 of our allies in the Middle, only ally in the Middle East. 04:55 And if we're wanting to present a united front 04:57 against Islamic terrorism, 04:59 make the move and therefore 05:00 it strengthens Israeli security, 05:02 it strengthens the US's foothold 05:03 in the Middle East. 05:05 I'm sure they said all of these things, 05:06 whether they are set, that is so. 05:08 Correct. 05:09 To be honest, I think it's been relatively quiet. 05:12 In fact, I think as we are filming this 05:14 with rockets flying in the Middle East 05:16 is the first big bump involving Israel. 05:19 I mean, obviously the Syrian conflict has just been 05:23 grinding on with loss of life and refugees and so on. 05:28 So it didn't have the immediately inflammatory 05:31 effect that I feared. 05:33 But, you know, you can spin it any way you want, 05:36 the religious right have a theological construct 05:41 and a reason for supporting Israel. 05:44 That was everything about why they pushed 05:47 for the recognition of Israel. 05:49 And, I was surprised that Israel went along 05:52 with it so easy because in this construct, 05:55 they're not so much concerned with Israelis 05:58 as their country. 06:00 They are sort of pawns to be swept away because, 06:03 you know, then Israel 06:04 is going to be knee deep in blood 06:07 and Armageddon and then Christ comes. 06:09 Yes. 06:11 In a perverse way, I don't think 06:13 the evangelical view of the end times 06:16 is much kinder to the Jews than the Islamic view. 06:19 The Islamic view is horrible. 06:21 You know, that Muhammad and Jesus, 06:24 and the 12 imams all appear 06:27 with the heavenly horde 06:30 and they're attacking the Antichrist 06:33 and his minions who are Jews, 06:36 and in Quranic or in Islamic writings it says 06:41 that the stones will cry out. 06:43 There is a Jew hiding behind me, 06:45 come and kill it. 06:47 And the evangelical view is not quite 06:48 so bloodthirsty to the Jewish nation, 06:50 but they're not really seen as the promised people, 06:52 particularly, it's, 06:54 they're just a way for us to get where we want to be. 06:57 Very sad. 06:58 But I think that's when they first started calling 07:01 ex-president Trump, Cyrus. 07:04 He was the promised one 07:05 that was delivering on all of that. 07:08 And what I think might be the next 07:12 significant development in the Middle East. 07:14 And I'd be interested in your comment. 07:16 Do you think there's going to be moves toward 07:20 either rebuilding the temple or effect simile 07:22 with a red heifer and the whole 07:25 reinstitution of the sacrificial system, 07:27 because that will bring the zealots out of the carpet. 07:33 Well, I think that certainly is in the offing, 07:37 in other words, that's the next step. 07:38 The reason I say that is that again in the background 07:42 and the research I did on the topic, 07:44 one of the things that across the board, 07:47 your conservative, evangelical Christians 07:49 like Pat Robertson and Hagin, 07:52 Kenneth Hagin, one of the Pentecostal 07:56 evangelists that based in Texas. 07:58 Very visible on television. 07:59 Both of them have made definitive statements. 08:02 They said that the line that we draw as far as we, 08:06 whether we give support, continued support 08:08 to Israel or not is whether they maintain 08:11 the unitary nature of Jerusalem 08:14 and recognize that as part of an essential part 08:18 of prophecy being fulfilled, or if they want to start 08:21 segregating it out and dividing it, i.e. 08:25 from a quick perspective, Israel may say, okay, 08:28 the US has moved their embassy over here 08:30 to Western Jerusalem. 08:32 Eastern Jerusalem is the location 08:33 of the holy sites. 08:35 And you do have Palestinians 08:37 that are claiming a portion of that 08:38 just as there are Jews. 08:40 There's The Church of the Holy Sepulcher 08:42 in Bethlehem is in Palestinian territory still. 08:45 Correct. 08:46 So if Israel should say, okay, to make a, some kind of a, 08:49 basically seeking a middle ground, 08:52 we will work with the Palestinians 08:54 and basically start carving it up. 08:56 That's where the evangelical conservative Christians 08:58 in America said, we're not negotiating on that. 09:01 So if Israel does that, we back out 09:03 and we don't support them anymore. 09:04 So it's kind of like drawing a line 09:06 in the sand and ultimatum 09:08 for Israel to fight and work, to maintain 09:11 that unitary part of the holy sites. 09:13 So, yes, to answer your question, 09:15 I see that based on that the dynamic there, 09:18 from the perspective 09:20 of evangelical conservative Christians, 09:22 that's the next step. 09:24 Yeah, I mean, on one level, 09:26 we've all gotten used to the reality of Israel 09:31 and I fall victim very often to retelling history, 09:34 but people should remember that the modern state of Israel 09:37 only dates back to the 50s and Zionism, 09:40 not much before World War II 09:44 and nor was it a religious movement 09:47 in essence, it was a yearning of a people. 09:53 And it's hard to even say ethnic, 09:55 you know, even Hitler and other enemies of 10:01 I think of truth have sort of flip flop 10:03 between a religious identity and some sort of racial marker, 10:07 you know, who were Jews. 10:09 Even in the Old Testament, it was anyone that came in 10:11 and honored the covenant, Rahab and others so. 10:16 But still this modern state of Israel 10:18 was of a socialist nature. 10:20 Remember they were combusted. 10:22 They were, you know, 10:24 the US muddy socialism and communism. 10:27 But I can tell you, the socialism 10:30 of the early state of Israel was communist. 10:33 I mean, not Eastern communism, 10:37 but it was not democracy in the classic sense. 10:40 It's come a long way. 10:41 I think we should have great sympathy for them, 10:45 the people wanting self-determination, 10:48 people defend, descended in many cases 10:50 from those who had escaped the Holocaust. 10:53 You know, it touches a nerve with much of the world, 10:56 but the sad reality is that they went back to a land 10:59 that had long since been occupied by others. 11:03 And I don't know, it's, I've thought many times 11:06 this is the modern day equivalent of the Gordian 11:09 knot of Alexander's time. 11:11 And he sliced through it. 11:12 And maybe Trump in a perverse way 11:15 was the closest to slicing through it. 11:18 It probably needs something radical 11:21 to change the status quo, but at the moment, 11:25 you know, I've visited there twice 11:28 and it's very invigorating. 11:29 And yet, as I was telling you in the break, 11:31 I remember standing in the shadow 11:34 of the dividing wall that snakes all 11:36 through and around Jerusalem 11:39 with young Israeli soldiers peering out the slip 11:41 with their sub machine guns. 11:42 I remember standing there, you know, five, ten foot away 11:46 talking to a Palestinian Christian 11:48 and him telling me how he was doubly ostracized, 11:53 kept out by the wall by Israelis 11:55 and victimized by fellow Palestinian Muslims. 12:00 There's just no winners in that part of the world in my view. 12:03 Yeah. 12:04 Because, you know, when you've got 12:06 at least in this situation, 12:08 you've got three different major faiths, 12:10 world faiths, right? 12:11 Global faiths, Christianity, Judaism, 12:13 and then also Islam, 12:15 each of them contending for certain areas 12:17 that they consider to be sacred, 12:19 and in some cases there's overlap 12:20 due to sacred texts that trace back 12:23 and you show an overlap of history and belief, right? 12:26 At the same time, you've got governments 12:28 that are on the scene interacting in all of that, 12:31 trying to work out 12:33 what's the best kind of solution, right? 12:36 And then you've got the United Nations as well, 12:38 getting involved in declaring that as an international site 12:41 and not just a national, like the nation of Israel site. 12:44 So yeah, it makes it for a very complex dynamic. 12:46 Yeah. 12:48 I don't know on this program we kind of have the solution, 12:50 but the solution has to be 12:53 along the lines of the charity 12:56 and love for fellow man that the Bible encourages it. 12:59 Isn't going to be hard headed, 13:01 you know, clearing out the enemy from his area 13:04 or who throws the most rockets 13:06 or who has the biggest delegation in the UN. 13:11 This might be a good time to take a break. 13:13 So we'll be back after a short break 13:14 to continue this discussion. |
Revised 2021-08-05