Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI210501B
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00:01 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:02 Before the break with guest Ed Cooke, 00:04 we'd been moving through Eastern Europe 00:07 and talking about the problems, religious problems in Kiev. 00:11 Sure. 00:12 And in the break you were talking about a gate, 00:15 a peace gate, right? 00:16 Yeah, the friendship bridge. 00:18 The friendship bridge. Yeah. 00:19 It had been built 00:21 between Russia and Ukraine there at Kiev. 00:24 So basically it was built to commemorate 00:27 a lasting bond of friendship between the two countries, 00:30 even though they had been, 00:31 you know, with the fall of communism back in the 90s 00:34 had now been there an independent nation. 00:37 But unfortunately that is something that 00:40 no longer one could say applies 00:41 because of the war between the two countries. 00:44 Well, it's not as bad, there is a war. 00:46 First of all, the gate reminds me 00:48 the last time I drove down from, 00:51 well, actually I drove up and then back 00:53 from the US up into Canada near Toronto, 00:58 near Vancouver, sorry, Vancouver, 01:01 there's the peace gate there. 01:03 Have you driven through that? 01:04 I have not. 01:06 And then it says, may there be no barrier 01:08 between our two countries or something eternal exchange. 01:13 And meanwhile, the cars stopped waiting, 01:16 stretched to the horizon. 01:19 And so 9/11 changed that, not as free and easy and... 01:23 Sure. 01:24 And shortly after that last time, 01:26 I remember they 01:27 intercepted someone coming with a trunk load of explosives 01:30 with bad designs on the Seattle tower. 01:33 Wow. 01:34 But that's good that they have that peace gate. 01:38 You need to have some history on this. 01:40 Remember Ukraine was historically 01:45 an adjunct to Russia 01:48 and the dukes of great gated Kiev. 01:52 That was really the symbol of Russia. 01:55 Even though there's some slight ethnic difference 01:57 and with the breakup of the Soviet Union, 02:01 there was quite fraternity between Ukraine and Russia. 02:04 And then... I was gonna... 02:06 Excuse me, I was just gonna 02:07 comment on that for a quick second, Lincoln, 02:09 'cause when I actually visited there 02:11 at one point I had, there's a taxi driver 02:15 that was driving me around town 02:16 and he said that he was Russian. 02:18 He said by ethnicity and by birth, he said, 02:21 I'm from Russia. 02:22 He said, I'm living here because I have family here, 02:24 his wife who was Ukrainian. 02:27 But he said when I hear in the news, 02:29 all of the issues between Russia and Ukraine, 02:32 he said to me, he said, it's not only painful, 02:36 but he said, why can't we just say that we're all brothers, 02:39 because they said we're all Slavic. 02:41 We're Slavic in the sense. 02:43 And in most parts of the world where there's conflict, 02:45 the person in the street by and large thinks that way, 02:49 that it's often people with a vested interest 02:52 that rabble rouse and get things stood up. 02:54 But the most sensible people are thinking exactly like that. 02:58 But the recent troubles came, there was a president elected, 03:03 and I don't wanna hazard the name. 03:05 I couldn't think of it, but of Ukraine and the US 03:09 and its allies are determined to pull 03:12 Ukraine out of the Russian orbit. 03:15 And so we actually paid, it was no secret. 03:18 We paid for agitators. 03:20 We interfered in the election 03:22 and in the end they were riots broke out 03:25 and the president fled to Russia. 03:29 He was pro-Russian. 03:30 And many of the people at the time were, 03:33 and that's when Russia started to pay 03:35 really good interest, 03:36 whether it's right or wrong, it's almost immaterial. 03:38 Whether there's national interest, 03:40 I think is so self-evident Russia had fraternity, 03:43 the president was friendly. 03:44 He was chased out by people at least agitated 03:48 and encouraged by Western interests. 03:51 And so Russia then decided that they would use some 03:55 quite influenced to address the problem. 03:58 Certainly, I mean, there's a problem. 04:00 But it was not as simple as some people imagine 04:02 the breakup of the Soviet Union here, 04:04 this nice independent country is suddenly 04:06 harassed by Russia. 04:07 No, wasn't that simple. 04:09 So, a part of what you're referring to is that 04:11 like with the Orange Revolution and the Maidan movement, 04:14 Euromaidan movement. 04:16 Yeah. 04:17 And I'll say it, but nobody could prove it, 04:20 but it appears that they were even just as the Russians 04:25 sending in unmarked 04:27 military operations into Ukraine, 04:30 the same was true of Western interests. 04:32 They were missionaries sent in 04:34 who may have been rebadged. 04:37 But, you know, I've mentioned before in this program, 04:41 I love Rudyard Kipling 04:42 at the height of the British Empire. 04:44 And he wrote a number of books 04:45 and he used to call it the great game 04:48 that the great powers play for influence and, 04:52 you know, forcing their way with one country or another. 04:54 And unfortunately Ukraine has become 04:56 a pawn in the great game. 04:58 So tell me though, 05:00 didn't you mention at some point that I'm 05:02 looking a little bit further back in the history, right? 05:04 That in regards to Ukraine and Russia relations, right? 05:09 That at some point one of the Russian presidents 05:14 and maybe this was under the Soviet... 05:15 Khrushchev. 05:16 He had given, he donated... 05:19 As a sign of fraternity at some point of celebration 05:22 he gave or seeded Crimea to the Ukraine, 05:26 but it never was historically separate from Russia. 05:31 Remember the Crimean War was fought 05:34 against Russia in the Crimea. 05:36 That was Russia at the time of the Russian Empire 05:38 before communism, nothing to do with communism. 05:41 But as we all know, Europe 05:43 generally and Russia to some degree, 05:45 you know, it was fluid over the centuries 05:48 the different principalities and dictators 05:52 and alliances and so on, 05:54 but there's certainly a reasonable argument 05:57 from a Russian perspective that it should still be theirs, 06:00 that it was an anomaly that it was let go. 06:02 So pulling that together to look at it 06:05 from a church state perspective, right? 06:07 So we talked a little bit about the regular Ukrainian citizen 06:11 that had been part of the Russian Orthodox Church 06:14 that was still faithful as patriotically to Ukraine, 06:18 but under those, the dynamics 06:21 of a unitary church across borders, 06:24 it was challenging for them to be accepted fully, 06:28 you know, as being part of Ukraine. 06:30 So my kind of question, maybe I'll throw out there, 06:33 in the Donbas region where you had Russia 06:36 coming in and annexing Crimea in 2014. 06:40 What about believers in that area 06:43 that are now caught between in a war zone, right? 06:46 They're meat in the sandwich. Yeah. 06:48 And remember we look askance at it 06:53 after our tawdry election that I think went well, 06:56 but there's certainly question. 06:59 There was a plebiscite in that area. 07:02 And because of the people movements 07:04 that Stalin had orchestrated, 07:06 there was a majority Russian ancestry in that area. 07:10 But something that's worth mentioning 07:12 because it has a religious component 07:13 and a historic. 07:15 One of the great epic moments of Russian history 07:19 is the turning back of the Teutonic Knight invasion 07:23 by the Duke of Kiev, Alexander Nevsky. 07:28 I mean, that's sort of like... 07:33 It's like Washington crossing the Delaware 07:36 for Russian history. 07:37 This is one of the great moments 07:39 and the Teutonic Knights 07:41 were a confederacy of Germanic knights 07:46 encouraged by the Roman Catholic Church 07:49 and fighting under a crusade. 07:53 They were dressed like crusaders. 07:55 They had the Catholic priests aiding and abetting. 07:59 That was all the wishes of Rome to defeat 08:02 this largely pagan dictum up in the far north. 08:07 And this victory of the Rus, the Russians 08:12 over the Teutonic Knights 08:15 is the crown jewel of Russian history, 08:17 that's in Ukraine. 08:18 So it shows you that this designation is not 08:22 as fixed as we imagined 08:25 and which is not to demean 08:27 the sense of self that present day 08:31 Ukrainians clearly have. 08:32 But religion is muddying it even further. 08:35 That's what I get out of your update on this, right? 08:39 Yeah, because with the, I guess you'd call it the pan, 08:42 meaning all kind of all right. 08:45 A breadth or scope of the Russian Orthodox Church 08:48 is that it's challenging 08:49 when you've got independent nations, 08:51 that the church as a unitary organization 08:54 crosses those boundaries. 08:56 And you've got people that for, you know, 08:58 one family's generation to the next 09:00 have identified as part of that church or organization. 09:03 And now all of a sudden there's military conflict 09:06 and things that would cause division there. 09:08 So, yeah, it becomes challenging for sure. 09:10 So what could we even suggest to solve this? 09:14 Not that you or I have the answer 09:16 and the Bible has spiritual answers, 09:19 but political Gordian Knot 09:22 it's like Jesus said all to take up the sword, 09:25 die by the sword, and My kingdom is not of this 09:28 else they'd fight. 09:29 So the kingdom of the sword is not the kingdom of heaven, 09:32 so maybe God's kingdom 09:34 can only call people to charity and peace. 09:36 But what do you think is likely to happen in this area? 09:39 Yeah, I think that in not only in Ukraine, 09:43 but other countries where you've got 09:44 such a close unity between religion and government 09:48 is for individual believers to have their faiths 09:52 grounded in Jesus 09:53 and in the principles that 09:55 they believe in to live those out. 09:57 And hopefully those in government leadership 10:00 can recognize the need 10:01 for a separation between church and state. 10:04 The more of that separation that exists, 10:07 the easier it is whenever conflicts develop 10:09 between one nation and another nation 10:12 as to being able to avoid 10:14 having religion or religious entities 10:16 involved in the middle of that. 10:18 So that's one of the primary benefits 10:20 of separation of church and state. 10:22 And maybe that's something that there in Ukraine, 10:24 if that's implemented 10:26 going forward could be something 10:27 that would be helpful. |
Revised 2021-08-02