Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
00:00:01.36\00:00:02.70
Before the break
with guest Ed Cooke,
00:00:02.73\00:00:04.43
we'd been moving
through Eastern Europe
00:00:04.47\00:00:07.87
and talking about the problems,
religious problems in Kiev.
00:00:07.90\00:00:10.97
Sure.
00:00:11.01\00:00:12.34
And in the break you
were talking about a gate,
00:00:12.37\00:00:15.48
a peace gate, right?
00:00:15.51\00:00:16.91
Yeah, the friendship bridge.
00:00:16.95\00:00:18.28
The friendship bridge. Yeah.
00:00:18.31\00:00:19.65
It had been built
00:00:19.68\00:00:21.02
between Russia and
Ukraine there at Kiev.
00:00:21.05\00:00:24.45
So basically it was
built to commemorate
00:00:24.49\00:00:27.46
a lasting bond of friendship
between the two countries,
00:00:27.49\00:00:30.36
even though they had been,
00:00:30.39\00:00:31.93
you know, with the fall
of communism back in the 90s
00:00:31.96\00:00:34.53
had now been there
an independent nation.
00:00:34.56\00:00:37.83
But unfortunately
that is something that
00:00:37.87\00:00:40.14
no longer one could say applies
00:00:40.17\00:00:41.74
because of the war
between the two countries.
00:00:41.77\00:00:44.07
Well, it's not as
bad, there is a war.
00:00:44.11\00:00:46.54
First of all,
the gate reminds me
00:00:46.57\00:00:48.61
the last time I drove down from,
00:00:48.64\00:00:51.28
well, actually I
drove up and then back
00:00:51.31\00:00:53.88
from the US up into
Canada near Toronto,
00:00:53.92\00:00:58.39
near Vancouver,
sorry, Vancouver,
00:00:58.42\00:01:01.72
there's the peace gate there.
00:01:01.76\00:01:03.49
Have you driven through that?
00:01:03.53\00:01:04.86
I have not.
00:01:04.89\00:01:06.23
And then it says,
may there be no barrier
00:01:06.26\00:01:08.33
between our two countries
or something eternal exchange.
00:01:08.36\00:01:13.54
And meanwhile, the
cars stopped waiting,
00:01:13.57\00:01:16.47
stretched to the horizon.
00:01:16.50\00:01:19.04
And so 9/11 changed that,
not as free and easy and...
00:01:19.07\00:01:23.24
Sure.
00:01:23.28\00:01:24.61
And shortly
after that last time,
00:01:24.65\00:01:26.28
I remember they
00:01:26.31\00:01:27.65
intercepted someone coming
with a trunk load of explosives
00:01:27.68\00:01:30.92
with bad designs
on the Seattle tower.
00:01:30.95\00:01:33.02
Wow.
00:01:33.05\00:01:34.39
But that's good that
they have that peace gate.
00:01:34.42\00:01:38.13
You need to have
some history on this.
00:01:38.16\00:01:40.83
Remember
Ukraine was historically
00:01:40.86\00:01:45.70
an adjunct to Russia
00:01:45.73\00:01:48.80
and the dukes of
great gated Kiev.
00:01:48.84\00:01:52.01
That was really
the symbol of Russia.
00:01:52.04\00:01:55.04
Even though there's
some slight ethnic difference
00:01:55.08\00:01:57.95
and with the
breakup of the Soviet Union,
00:01:57.98\00:02:01.32
there was quite fraternity
between Ukraine and Russia.
00:02:01.35\00:02:04.55
And then... I was gonna...
00:02:04.59\00:02:06.32
Excuse me, I was just gonna
00:02:06.35\00:02:07.69
comment on that for a
quick second, Lincoln,
00:02:07.72\00:02:09.06
'cause when I
actually visited there
00:02:09.09\00:02:11.79
at one point I had,
there's a taxi driver
00:02:11.83\00:02:14.96
that was driving me around town
00:02:15.00\00:02:16.90
and he said that he was Russian.
00:02:16.93\00:02:18.50
He said by ethnicity
and by birth, he said,
00:02:18.53\00:02:21.47
I'm from Russia.
00:02:21.50\00:02:22.84
He said, I'm living here
because I have family here,
00:02:22.87\00:02:24.94
his wife who was Ukrainian.
00:02:24.97\00:02:26.98
But he said when
I hear in the news,
00:02:27.01\00:02:29.61
all of the issues
between Russia and Ukraine,
00:02:29.64\00:02:32.85
he said to me, he
said, it's not only painful,
00:02:32.88\00:02:36.12
but he said, why can't we just
say that we're all brothers,
00:02:36.15\00:02:39.65
because they
said we're all Slavic.
00:02:39.69\00:02:41.86
We're Slavic in the sense.
00:02:41.89\00:02:43.66
And in most parts of the
world where there's conflict,
00:02:43.69\00:02:45.96
the person in the street
by and large thinks that way,
00:02:45.99\00:02:49.56
that it's often
people with a vested interest
00:02:49.60\00:02:52.27
that rabble rouse
and get things stood up.
00:02:52.30\00:02:54.30
But the most sensible people
are thinking exactly like that.
00:02:54.34\00:02:58.37
But the recent troubles came,
there was a president elected,
00:02:58.41\00:03:03.35
and I don't
wanna hazard the name.
00:03:03.38\00:03:05.38
I couldn't think of it,
but of Ukraine and the US
00:03:05.41\00:03:09.58
and its allies
are determined to pull
00:03:09.62\00:03:12.79
Ukraine out of
the Russian orbit.
00:03:12.82\00:03:15.62
And so we actually
paid, it was no secret.
00:03:15.66\00:03:18.79
We paid for agitators.
00:03:18.83\00:03:20.16
We interfered in the election
00:03:20.20\00:03:22.43
and in the end they
were riots broke out
00:03:22.46\00:03:25.17
and the
president fled to Russia.
00:03:25.20\00:03:29.04
He was pro-Russian.
00:03:29.07\00:03:30.54
And many of the
people at the time were,
00:03:30.57\00:03:33.04
and that's when
Russia started to pay
00:03:33.07\00:03:35.04
really good interest,
00:03:35.08\00:03:36.71
whether it's right or
wrong, it's almost immaterial.
00:03:36.75\00:03:38.88
Whether there's
national interest,
00:03:38.91\00:03:40.25
I think is so self-evident
Russia had fraternity,
00:03:40.28\00:03:43.52
the president was friendly.
00:03:43.55\00:03:44.89
He was chased out by
people at least agitated
00:03:44.92\00:03:48.82
and encouraged by
Western interests.
00:03:48.86\00:03:50.99
And so Russia then
decided that they would use some
00:03:51.03\00:03:55.70
quite influenced to
address the problem.
00:03:55.73\00:03:58.80
Certainly, I
mean, there's a problem.
00:03:58.83\00:04:00.17
But it was not as
simple as some people imagine
00:04:00.20\00:04:02.67
the breakup of
the Soviet Union here,
00:04:02.70\00:04:04.37
this nice
independent country is suddenly
00:04:04.41\00:04:06.54
harassed by Russia.
00:04:06.57\00:04:07.91
No, wasn't that simple.
00:04:07.94\00:04:09.28
So, a part of what
you're referring to is that
00:04:09.31\00:04:11.31
like with the Orange Revolution
and the Maidan movement,
00:04:11.35\00:04:14.62
Euromaidan movement.
00:04:14.65\00:04:16.15
Yeah.
00:04:16.18\00:04:17.52
And I'll say it, but
nobody could prove it,
00:04:17.55\00:04:20.02
but it appears that they
were even just as the Russians
00:04:20.06\00:04:25.16
sending in unmarked
00:04:25.19\00:04:27.00
military
operations into Ukraine,
00:04:27.03\00:04:30.63
the same was true
of Western interests.
00:04:30.67\00:04:32.50
They were missionaries sent in
00:04:32.53\00:04:34.47
who may have been rebadged.
00:04:34.50\00:04:37.27
But, you know, I've mentioned
before in this program,
00:04:37.31\00:04:41.24
I love Rudyard Kipling
00:04:41.28\00:04:42.61
at the height of
the British Empire.
00:04:42.64\00:04:44.05
And he wrote a number of books
00:04:44.08\00:04:45.41
and he used to
call it the great game
00:04:45.45\00:04:48.02
that the great powers
play for influence and,
00:04:48.05\00:04:52.02
you know, forcing their way
with one country or another.
00:04:52.05\00:04:54.72
And unfortunately
Ukraine has become
00:04:54.76\00:04:56.69
a pawn in the great game.
00:04:56.73\00:04:58.66
So tell me though,
00:04:58.69\00:05:00.03
didn't you mention
at some point that I'm
00:05:00.06\00:05:01.96
looking a little bit further
back in the history, right?
00:05:02.00\00:05:04.43
That in regards to Ukraine
and Russia relations, right?
00:05:04.47\00:05:09.94
That at some point one
of the Russian presidents
00:05:09.97\00:05:14.18
and maybe this was
under the Soviet...
00:05:14.21\00:05:15.58
Khrushchev.
00:05:15.61\00:05:16.95
He had given, he donated...
00:05:16.98\00:05:18.98
As a sign of fraternity
at some point of celebration
00:05:19.01\00:05:22.48
he gave or seeded
Crimea to the Ukraine,
00:05:22.52\00:05:26.45
but it never was historically
separate from Russia.
00:05:26.49\00:05:31.79
Remember the
Crimean War was fought
00:05:31.83\00:05:34.90
against Russia in the Crimea.
00:05:34.93\00:05:36.53
That was Russia at the
time of the Russian Empire
00:05:36.56\00:05:38.70
before communism,
nothing to do with communism.
00:05:38.73\00:05:41.87
But as we all know, Europe
00:05:41.90\00:05:43.54
generally and
Russia to some degree,
00:05:43.57\00:05:45.77
you know, it was
fluid over the centuries
00:05:45.81\00:05:48.48
the different
principalities and dictators
00:05:48.51\00:05:52.05
and alliances and so on,
00:05:52.08\00:05:54.32
but there's
certainly a reasonable argument
00:05:54.35\00:05:57.22
from a Russian perspective
that it should still be theirs,
00:05:57.25\00:06:00.19
that it was an
anomaly that it was let go.
00:06:00.22\00:06:02.26
So pulling that
together to look at it
00:06:02.29\00:06:05.43
from a church
state perspective, right?
00:06:05.46\00:06:07.50
So we talked a little bit about
the regular Ukrainian citizen
00:06:07.53\00:06:11.87
that had been part of
the Russian Orthodox Church
00:06:11.90\00:06:14.30
that was still faithful
as patriotically to Ukraine,
00:06:14.34\00:06:18.51
but under those, the dynamics
00:06:18.54\00:06:21.58
of a unitary
church across borders,
00:06:21.61\00:06:24.51
it was challenging for
them to be accepted fully,
00:06:24.55\00:06:28.65
you know, as
being part of Ukraine.
00:06:28.68\00:06:30.02
So my kind of question,
maybe I'll throw out there,
00:06:30.05\00:06:33.46
in the Donbas
region where you had Russia
00:06:33.49\00:06:36.79
coming in and
annexing Crimea in 2014.
00:06:36.83\00:06:40.83
What about
believers in that area
00:06:40.86\00:06:43.16
that are now caught
between in a war zone, right?
00:06:43.20\00:06:46.43
They're meat in
the sandwich. Yeah.
00:06:46.47\00:06:48.14
And remember we
look askance at it
00:06:48.17\00:06:53.24
after our tawdry
election that I think went well,
00:06:53.27\00:06:56.75
but there's certainly question.
00:06:56.78\00:06:59.01
There was a
plebiscite in that area.
00:06:59.05\00:07:02.48
And because of
the people movements
00:07:02.52\00:07:03.99
that Stalin had orchestrated,
00:07:04.02\00:07:06.02
there was a majority
Russian ancestry in that area.
00:07:06.05\00:07:10.13
But something
that's worth mentioning
00:07:10.16\00:07:12.29
because it has a
religious component
00:07:12.33\00:07:13.90
and a historic.
00:07:13.93\00:07:15.40
One of the great epic
moments of Russian history
00:07:15.43\00:07:19.53
is the turning back of
the Teutonic Knight invasion
00:07:19.57\00:07:23.44
by the Duke of
Kiev, Alexander Nevsky.
00:07:23.47\00:07:28.21
I mean, that's sort of like...
00:07:28.24\00:07:30.31
It's like Washington
crossing the Delaware
00:07:33.72\00:07:36.58
for Russian history.
00:07:36.62\00:07:37.95
This is one of the great moments
00:07:37.99\00:07:39.95
and the Teutonic Knights
00:07:39.99\00:07:41.39
were a confederacy
of Germanic knights
00:07:41.42\00:07:46.13
encouraged by the
Roman Catholic Church
00:07:46.16\00:07:49.33
and fighting under a crusade.
00:07:49.36\00:07:53.90
They were
dressed like crusaders.
00:07:53.94\00:07:55.27
They had the Catholic
priests aiding and abetting.
00:07:55.30\00:07:58.97
That was all the
wishes of Rome to defeat
00:07:59.01\00:08:02.34
this largely pagan
dictum up in the far north.
00:08:02.38\00:08:07.48
And this victory of
the Rus, the Russians
00:08:07.52\00:08:12.19
over the Teutonic Knights
00:08:12.22\00:08:15.16
is the crown jewel
of Russian history,
00:08:15.19\00:08:17.39
that's in Ukraine.
00:08:17.43\00:08:18.86
So it shows you that
this designation is not
00:08:18.89\00:08:22.00
as fixed as we imagined
00:08:22.03\00:08:25.57
and which is not to demean
00:08:25.60\00:08:27.94
the sense of
self that present day
00:08:27.97\00:08:30.97
Ukrainians clearly have.
00:08:31.01\00:08:32.71
But religion is
muddying it even further.
00:08:32.74\00:08:35.38
That's what I get out of
your update on this, right?
00:08:35.41\00:08:39.15
Yeah, because with the, I
guess you'd call it the pan,
00:08:39.18\00:08:42.68
meaning all kind of all right.
00:08:42.72\00:08:45.22
A breadth or scope of
the Russian Orthodox Church
00:08:45.25\00:08:48.49
is that it's challenging
00:08:48.52\00:08:49.86
when you've got
independent nations,
00:08:49.89\00:08:51.69
that the church as
a unitary organization
00:08:51.73\00:08:54.80
crosses those boundaries.
00:08:54.83\00:08:56.33
And you've got
people that for, you know,
00:08:56.36\00:08:58.67
one family's
generation to the next
00:08:58.70\00:09:00.40
have identified as part of
that church or organization.
00:09:00.44\00:09:03.67
And now all of a sudden
there's military conflict
00:09:03.71\00:09:06.57
and things that
would cause division there.
00:09:06.61\00:09:08.68
So, yeah, it becomes
challenging for sure.
00:09:08.71\00:09:10.61
So what could we even
suggest to solve this?
00:09:10.65\00:09:14.35
Not that you or
I have the answer
00:09:14.38\00:09:16.42
and the Bible has
spiritual answers,
00:09:16.45\00:09:19.15
but political Gordian Knot
00:09:19.19\00:09:22.49
it's like Jesus said
all to take up the sword,
00:09:22.52\00:09:25.69
die by the sword, and
My kingdom is not of this
00:09:25.73\00:09:28.23
else they'd fight.
00:09:28.26\00:09:29.70
So the kingdom of the sword
is not the kingdom of heaven,
00:09:29.73\00:09:32.23
so maybe God's kingdom
00:09:32.27\00:09:34.04
can only call people
to charity and peace.
00:09:34.07\00:09:36.77
But what do you think is
likely to happen in this area?
00:09:36.81\00:09:39.87
Yeah, I think that
in not only in Ukraine,
00:09:39.91\00:09:43.04
but other
countries where you've got
00:09:43.08\00:09:44.51
such a close unity
between religion and government
00:09:44.55\00:09:48.18
is for individual
believers to have their faiths
00:09:48.22\00:09:52.49
grounded in Jesus
00:09:52.52\00:09:53.96
and in the principles that
00:09:53.99\00:09:55.46
they believe in
to live those out.
00:09:55.49\00:09:57.59
And hopefully those
in government leadership
00:09:57.63\00:10:00.10
can recognize the need
00:10:00.13\00:10:01.90
for a separation
between church and state.
00:10:01.93\00:10:04.63
The more of that
separation that exists,
00:10:04.67\00:10:07.04
the easier it is
whenever conflicts develop
00:10:07.07\00:10:09.67
between one
nation and another nation
00:10:09.70\00:10:12.34
as to being able to avoid
00:10:12.37\00:10:14.31
having religion
or religious entities
00:10:14.34\00:10:16.41
involved in the middle of that.
00:10:16.44\00:10:18.25
So that's one of
the primary benefits
00:10:18.28\00:10:20.28
of separation of
church and state.
00:10:20.32\00:10:22.05
And maybe that's
something that there in Ukraine,
00:10:22.08\00:10:24.95
if that's implemented
00:10:24.99\00:10:26.32
going forward could be something
00:10:26.35\00:10:27.89
that would be helpful.
00:10:27.92\00:10:29.26