Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI210501A
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00:27 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is your program to draw you 00:31 in to the excitement of religious liberty 00:33 and some of the developments taking place around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, 22 years 00:39 I was editor of Liberty Magazine 00:40 and continuing this program 00:43 with my guest Ed Cooke. 00:47 How do I describe you? 00:48 Pastor, writer, written for Liberty Magazine 00:51 for many years, a doctorate 00:52 in church state studies from Baylor. 00:55 So you've got pretty good credentials. 00:57 Yeah. 00:58 And I've done a bit of lecturing, 00:59 you know, traveling and giving lectures. 01:01 In fact is probably the topic. 01:03 I'm sure we've talked about a little bit, 01:05 but we would discuss today would be dealing with Ukraine 01:07 and out of Soviet Union movement. 01:09 Yes, of course, yeah. 01:10 There's so many topics, but let's settle on that one. 01:14 I have a lot of opinions on Ukraine. 01:16 I've known a number of Ukrainians. 01:18 I remember being captivated by the history 01:21 of that region. 01:22 And in particular... 01:24 I even had a girlfriend from Ukraine. 01:25 Did you? Yeah. 01:26 Okay. Nice lady. 01:28 But beautiful women there, you know 01:32 where the most beautiful women are is defined variously, 01:35 but very nice people Ukrainians. 01:40 I remember very clearly 01:43 maybe 10, 15 years or more ago now 01:46 watching television. 01:47 And it was an interview with one of the top advisors 01:50 from Vladimir Putin. 01:53 And he was complaining about how, 01:56 although promises were given to Gorbachev 01:59 that if he allowed the Soviet Union to collapse 02:01 that the US and the Western allies 02:04 made a commitment not to use those separated satellites 02:08 as an alliance against Russia 02:12 which of course has been broken. 02:15 And he said, the last point he says, 02:20 if you ever tried to do that to Ukraine, he says, 02:23 we will not accept that. 02:25 That will be war. 02:26 That's where we are today, isn't it? 02:28 Yes, yes. 02:29 And I'm not, it's not for me to say 02:32 what's right or wrong, 02:33 but we should've seen this coming. 02:35 Now the Ukrainian situation, 02:40 of course, involves many aspects, 02:41 political and religious. 02:43 And I know you've got some real good insights. 02:45 Yes. 02:47 One of the things that I think is 02:48 maybe we could say 02:50 is part of the background, right? 02:51 The picture is dealing with the, 02:53 of course, the military conflict. 02:55 Now over in the Donbas region that, 02:58 you know, things happened back in 2014, 03:01 you had the annexation 03:06 of the not Croatia... 03:07 Crimea. 03:08 Yeah, Crimea, the annexation of Crimea. 03:10 And then, of course, things from there escalating 03:12 between the two countries and the... 03:15 From a religious liberty perspective, 03:18 one of the dominant themes in recent years 03:20 has revolved around 03:22 the role of the Russian Orthodox Church, 03:24 because at the time of the Soviet Union, 03:28 you had that church being the church 03:29 that served in all of the people. 03:31 It's the state church. Yes, state church of Russia. 03:34 And so now that you have 03:35 the dismantling of the Soviet Union 03:37 and these other countries that are now 03:39 four satellite countries around Russia, 03:43 you still have the influence of the Russian Orthodox Church 03:45 in those countries, but what do you do 03:47 when you've got Russia and Ukraine at war? 03:50 And you've got the same church 03:51 that crosses that national boundary, right? 03:55 So those are some issues related to religious freedom 03:59 that deal with the believers in each of those countries, 04:02 belonging to a single unitary church, 04:05 and both the governments of each of those countries 04:07 at odds with one another. 04:09 So it makes for a very unique dynamic. 04:12 And it's worth pointing out to our viewers 04:18 that this goes back 04:19 to the big split in Christendom. 04:22 You know, originally there was just one Christian Church 04:25 that was progressively. 04:27 I could even use the word hijack 04:29 by the Bishop of Rome 04:31 following the collapse of the of the Roman Empire. 04:35 But then what was it, 04:37 was around the year 1000, wasn't it? 04:38 1054. 04:40 1054, the... 04:42 I'm trying to think of the term they give to it... 04:44 Schism. 04:45 The great schism or schism in Christianity. 04:48 And it was largely over the authority of the pope 04:52 and the trinity 04:56 and a few procedural matters on the mass and so on. 05:00 But that's the big split. 05:01 And so it's the Orthodox Churches, 05:03 which includes the Russian Orthodox, 05:05 the Eastern Orthodox in Greece and other places. 05:08 But it's all that blocks of Orthodox Church, 05:10 block of churches 05:12 and Roman Catholic which then split up 05:13 the reformation between Catholic and Protestant. 05:16 And that divide is real. 05:20 And in an earlier program, we talked about World War II, 05:24 where the papacy allied with Germany 05:28 and the papacy sort of had a double whammy in mind 05:31 because they wanted to wipe out communism 05:32 and denature their religious competitors 05:36 in the Eastern Orthodox Church. 05:37 Yeah. 05:39 And just like the Church of England 05:42 identified during the American Revolution 05:45 with the loyalist forces. 05:47 I think the Eastern Orthodox Church 05:48 have been caught with this, haven't they? 05:50 Between Russia and Ukraine, 05:51 because they're nationally identified that, 05:54 hey, you're fighting Russia. 05:55 And here You remember the Russian Orthodox,... 05:58 I think they're in a difficult spot. 05:59 For sure. 06:01 So how have they been resolving this? 06:02 Yes, so believers in Ukraine 06:05 that have belonged to the Russian Orthodox Church 06:08 once the war started exactly 06:10 at the point that you made is that they're kind of 06:13 in between a rock 06:14 and a hard place in the sense that 06:16 they're Ukrainian citizens, 06:17 they're faithful to their country. 06:19 They're not disloyal, but at the same time, 06:21 in their faith 06:23 they have belonged to the Russian Orthodox Church. 06:24 So this church that spans 06:26 two different countries across the border 06:29 what they ended up doing as an initial solution 06:32 they tried to do was establish 06:34 the Moscow Patriarchate for those that lived in Russia. 06:38 And the Kiev Patriarchate 06:40 for those that lived in Ukraine 06:42 and still part of the same unitary 06:44 Russian Orthodox Church. 06:46 Well, as the conflict developed further 06:48 between the two countries along military lines 06:51 and losses of up to 14,000 individuals lost that, 06:55 losing their lives of Ukrainian soldiers, 06:58 of course, things became much more bitter 07:00 and very protracted between the two countries 07:04 and things reaching a media national level and so forth. 07:08 So leadership in Ukraine 07:10 decided that what they wanted to do 07:12 was actually separate completely 07:14 from the Russian Orthodox Church. 07:16 And there was discussion for a period of time 07:18 about forming the Ukrainian Orthodox Church 07:21 and making a complete break. 07:23 Well, the people that were part of the church 07:26 that were living in Ukraine, 07:27 there was some pushback on that. 07:29 They felt that government shouldn't get involved 07:31 in the religious sphere. 07:32 Well, I can tell... 07:34 Without knowing all of it, 07:35 I could tell you what clearly would be a part of it. 07:37 And it's the thing that lies behind the conflict in general, 07:41 the Soviet Union under Stalin 07:44 particularly moved people around. 07:48 I remember going to Latvia, 07:50 little country of only a few million people, 07:53 but at the time of their recent independence, 07:56 they were 50% Russian national... 07:59 Well, ethnic Russians moved there. 08:02 So when you move people around, you change the dynamic. 08:05 So I'm sure, even though Ukraine is a separate country, 08:08 many of those members of the now Ukrainian 08:11 Orthodox Church are Russians. 08:13 So they're not gonna be happy with that either. 08:15 True. 08:16 And, you know, Stalin's long gone 08:20 and I don't think the present 08:21 Russian leadership 08:23 are interested in playing that game, 08:24 but they have to play it because of the reality. 08:27 And remember, Hitler tried that, 08:29 that was really the logic 08:34 for causing World War II. 08:35 Yeah. 08:36 Protecting your not fellow citizens, 08:40 but fellow ethnic Germans in his case 08:42 in another country. 08:44 So even though you're talking about a religious conflict, 08:47 it's not at all separated from the political conflict. 08:50 True. 08:52 So in Ukraine, as things developed further, 08:55 the believers that were 08:58 before they actually made the break 09:01 and organized the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, 09:04 what, before that time or leading up to it, 09:06 I should say, 09:07 those that were part of 09:09 the Moscow Patriarchate in Ukraine. 09:11 They wanted to show themselves 09:13 as faithful Ukrainian citizens, 09:15 and they wanted to have their pilgrimage that they wanted to, 09:20 they designed a one part of believers 09:23 coming from the western part of the Ukraine, 09:24 the other part coming from the eastern part of the Ukraine 09:27 meeting together in Kiev, 09:30 and basically thus signifying east and west unified 09:34 across the country to... 09:36 For the whole, all of Ukraine to see 09:37 and recognize this pilgrimage 09:39 is bringing the two sides together 09:40 that they are faithful Ukrainians, 09:42 even though they're part of the Russian Orthodox Church. 09:44 Well, the concern from a national security perspective 09:48 is that some of the leadership in Ukraine felt, 09:50 well, while these people that 09:52 are part of the Moscow Patriarchate, 09:54 even though they're Ukrainian citizens, 09:56 there could be other elements among them, i.e. 09:59 Russians or people that would cause 10:00 inside rebellion. 10:02 Russia Eastern Orthodox... Yes. 10:04 Living in Ukraine. 10:05 Yes, that was their concern. 10:07 And so that started to evolve into discussion 10:10 at the public on the public level 10:12 national level newspapers and so forth. 10:15 And what happened is the Ukrainian, 10:17 the state security service of Ukraine 10:19 also got involved and they did identify, 10:22 I think it was just a few instances, 10:24 maybe one person or two that had pro-Russian flags 10:28 that were part of the group along the way, 10:30 'cause the movement as the pilgrimage moved 10:33 towards Ukraine, more people joined. 10:35 So taking a few photos of that 10:37 and then publishing that in a booklet format 10:40 that the state security service of Ukraine did, 10:43 the journalist in Ukraine obtained copies. 10:46 And, of course, once it hit the tabloids and the news, 10:48 it just kind of went national. 10:50 And at that point, everybody said, 10:52 no, this is actually a movement 10:53 to overthrow the government in Kiev. 10:56 So things really started 10:58 to spin out of control at that point. 11:00 But it just does... 11:01 It goes to emphasize the aspect of how religion, 11:05 especially if it's closely identified with government 11:08 can be something that, 11:09 I mean, it has explosive potential, right? 11:12 Things can really go in a wrong direction 11:14 or be misinterpreted. 11:15 Yeah. 11:17 And the role of the Orthodox Church 11:20 in Eastern Europe has been powerful 11:22 and communism didn't do much, couldn't do much 11:25 to diminish it even though Stalin sent... 11:28 Was a huge number, 11:29 I think 50,000 priests were executed. 11:32 Yeah. 11:33 But once communism evaporated, 11:35 we find that Eastern Orthodox 11:37 identity very, very strong. 11:39 And as you and I were talking before this program 11:42 Vladimir Putin has been at great pains 11:44 to show solidarity with the Eastern Orthodox. 11:48 And I think Kirill is still the patriarch, 11:51 but he gave him an office 11:53 in the Kremlin, right? 11:57 Very close to his church and state together. 12:02 But we wish them the best. 12:03 We don't want religious or political conflict. 12:05 Yeah. 12:07 And any religion practiced 12:09 sincerely should lead to harmony and brotherhood. 12:12 But that's not the case very often, 12:15 but even as you're talking about this, 12:18 I'm reminded of something in the not so distant future. 12:21 Remember the United States intervene with 12:24 other European powers in the Balkans, 12:29 the thing there with Yugoslavia and breakaway Kosovo, 12:32 it was Bosnia first, then Kosovo. 12:35 And I remember a crucial point 12:38 when the Serbians were under attack, 12:43 a Russian military convoy came down, 12:46 basically a flying wedge across... 12:49 I'm trying to think of my geography. 12:51 They had to go across some rather unfriendly land 12:54 to get there, but they ran a rescue mission 12:56 to help their fellow Eastern Orthodox 12:58 in the Balkans. 13:00 Yeah. So the ties are very strong. 13:02 Yeah. 13:03 And further back, I can remember growing up 13:05 my father telling me stories of World War II 13:08 just to... 13:10 Now that area of the Balkans, 13:12 just across the Adriatic from Italy, 13:14 very close it's almost like a lake across. 13:17 I remember that when we flew across 13:19 5-10-minute flight, no more. 13:21 And the Serbs and the Croats, 13:25 the Eastern Orthodox 13:27 and the Catholics fought bitterly, 13:28 and there were horrible abuses. 13:30 Yeah. 13:31 Perpetrated there at World War II. 13:34 So those people of those faith, they remember that stuff, 13:37 those sort of conflict. 13:39 We've gotten used to the Palestinian Israeli 13:42 divide in the Middle East. 13:43 And that's... 13:44 Well, it goes back to Bible times, but as far as 13:47 the political dislocation, it's a lifetime, 13:49 but these other things, they go back. 13:51 Centuries. Many, many centuries. 13:54 So yeah, there's this thing in Kiev 14:00 around Kiev is we have to pray for them. 14:03 What else in that area has taken your attention? 14:05 But maybe we should take a break first. 14:07 We've reached a nice break point. 14:08 So stay with us. 14:10 And we'll cast our net around this world 14:13 to see where there are some interesting religious 14:16 and religious liberty anomalies. |
Revised 2021-08-02