Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is your program to draw you
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in to the
excitement of religious liberty
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and some of the developments
taking place around the world.
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My name is
Lincoln Steed, 22 years
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I was editor of Liberty Magazine
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and continuing this program
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with my guest Ed Cooke.
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How do I describe you?
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Pastor, writer,
written for Liberty Magazine
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for many years, a doctorate
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in church state
studies from Baylor.
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So you've got
pretty good credentials.
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Yeah.
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And I've done a
bit of lecturing,
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you know, traveling
and giving lectures.
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In fact is probably the topic.
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I'm sure we've
talked about a little bit,
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but we would discuss today
would be dealing with Ukraine
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and out of
Soviet Union movement.
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Yes, of course, yeah.
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There's so many topics,
but let's settle on that one.
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I have a lot of
opinions on Ukraine.
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I've known a
number of Ukrainians.
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I remember being
captivated by the history
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of that region.
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And in particular...
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I even had a
girlfriend from Ukraine.
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Did you? Yeah.
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Okay. Nice lady.
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But beautiful
women there, you know
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where the most beautiful
women are is defined variously,
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but very nice people Ukrainians.
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I remember very clearly
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maybe 10, 15
years or more ago now
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watching television.
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And it was an interview
with one of the top advisors
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from Vladimir Putin.
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And he was
complaining about how,
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although promises
were given to Gorbachev
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that if he allowed the
Soviet Union to collapse
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that the US and
the Western allies
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made a commitment not to
use those separated satellites
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as an alliance against Russia
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which of course has been broken.
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And he said, the
last point he says,
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if you ever tried to do
that to Ukraine, he says,
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we will not accept that.
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That will be war.
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That's where we
are today, isn't it?
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Yes, yes.
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And I'm not,
it's not for me to say
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what's right or wrong,
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but we should've
seen this coming.
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Now the Ukrainian situation,
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of course,
involves many aspects,
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political and religious.
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And I know you've got
some real good insights.
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Yes.
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One of the
things that I think is
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maybe we could say
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is part of the
background, right?
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The picture is dealing with the,
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of course, the
military conflict.
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Now over in the
Donbas region that,
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you know, things
happened back in 2014,
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you had the annexation
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of the not Croatia...
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Crimea.
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Yeah, Crimea, the
annexation of Crimea.
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And then, of course,
things from there escalating
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between the two
countries and the...
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From a religious
liberty perspective,
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one of the dominant
themes in recent years
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has revolved around
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the role of the
Russian Orthodox Church,
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because at the time
of the Soviet Union,
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you had that
church being the church
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that served in
all of the people.
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It's the state church.
Yes, state church of Russia.
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And so now that you have
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the dismantling
of the Soviet Union
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and these other
countries that are now
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four satellite
countries around Russia,
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you still have the influence
of the Russian Orthodox Church
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in those
countries, but what do you do
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when you've got
Russia and Ukraine at war?
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And you've got the same church
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that crosses that
national boundary, right?
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So those are some issues
related to religious freedom
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that deal with the believers
in each of those countries,
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belonging to a
single unitary church,
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and both the governments
of each of those countries
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at odds with one another.
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So it makes for a
very unique dynamic.
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And it's worth
pointing out to our viewers
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that this goes back
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to the big split in Christendom.
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You know, originally there
was just one Christian Church
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that was progressively.
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I could even use the word hijack
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by the Bishop of Rome
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following the collapse
of the of the Roman Empire.
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But then what was it,
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was around the
year 1000, wasn't it?
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1054.
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1054, the...
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I'm trying to think of
the term they give to it...
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Schism.
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The great schism or
schism in Christianity.
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And it was largely over
the authority of the pope
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and the trinity
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and a few procedural
matters on the mass and so on.
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But that's the big split.
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And so it's the
Orthodox Churches,
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which includes
the Russian Orthodox,
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the Eastern Orthodox in
Greece and other places.
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But it's all that
blocks of Orthodox Church,
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block of churches
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and Roman Catholic
which then split up
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the reformation between
Catholic and Protestant.
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And that divide is real.
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And in an earlier program,
we talked about World War II,
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where the papacy
allied with Germany
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and the papacy sort of
had a double whammy in mind
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because they wanted
to wipe out communism
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and denature their
religious competitors
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in the Eastern Orthodox Church.
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Yeah.
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And just like
the Church of England
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identified during
the American Revolution
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with the loyalist forces.
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I think the
Eastern Orthodox Church
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have been caught
with this, haven't they?
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Between Russia and Ukraine,
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because they're
nationally identified that,
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hey, you're fighting Russia.
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And here You remember
the Russian Orthodox,...
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I think they're
in a difficult spot.
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For sure.
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So how have they
been resolving this?
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Yes, so believers in Ukraine
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that have belonged to
the Russian Orthodox Church
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once the war started exactly
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at the point that you
made is that they're kind of
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in between a rock
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and a hard place
in the sense that
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they're Ukrainian citizens,
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they're faithful
to their country.
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They're not
disloyal, but at the same time,
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in their faith
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they have belonged to
the Russian Orthodox Church.
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So this church that spans
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two different
countries across the border
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what they ended up
doing as an initial solution
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they tried to do was establish
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the Moscow Patriarchate
for those that lived in Russia.
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And the Kiev Patriarchate
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for those that lived in Ukraine
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and still part
of the same unitary
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Russian Orthodox Church.
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Well, as the
conflict developed further
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between the two
countries along military lines
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and losses of up to
14,000 individuals lost that,
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losing their lives
of Ukrainian soldiers,
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of course, things
became much more bitter
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and very protracted
between the two countries
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and things reaching a media
national level and so forth.
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So leadership in Ukraine
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decided that
what they wanted to do
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was actually separate completely
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from the
Russian Orthodox Church.
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And there was
discussion for a period of time
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about forming the
Ukrainian Orthodox Church
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and making a complete break.
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Well, the people that
were part of the church
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that were living in Ukraine,
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there was some pushback on that.
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They felt that government
shouldn't get involved
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in the religious sphere.
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Well, I can tell...
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Without knowing all of it,
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I could tell you what
clearly would be a part of it.
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And it's the thing that lies
behind the conflict in general,
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the Soviet Union under Stalin
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particularly
moved people around.
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I remember going to Latvia,
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little country of
only a few million people,
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but at the time of
their recent independence,
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they were 50%
Russian national...
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Well, ethnic
Russians moved there.
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So when you move people
around, you change the dynamic.
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So I'm sure, even though
Ukraine is a separate country,
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many of those
members of the now Ukrainian
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Orthodox Church are Russians.
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So they're not gonna
be happy with that either.
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True.
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And, you know,
Stalin's long gone
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and I don't think the present
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Russian leadership
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are interested in
playing that game,
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but they have to play
it because of the reality.
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And remember, Hitler tried that,
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that was really the logic
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for causing World War II.
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Yeah.
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Protecting your
not fellow citizens,
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but fellow ethnic
Germans in his case
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in another country.
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So even though you're talking
about a religious conflict,
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it's not at all separated
from the political conflict.
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True.
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So in Ukraine, as
things developed further,
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the believers that were
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before they
actually made the break
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and organized the
Ukrainian Orthodox Church,
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what, before that
time or leading up to it,
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I should say,
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those that were part of
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the Moscow
Patriarchate in Ukraine.
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They wanted to show themselves
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as faithful Ukrainian citizens,
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and they wanted to have their
pilgrimage that they wanted to,
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they designed a
one part of believers
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coming from the
western part of the Ukraine,
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the other part coming from
the eastern part of the Ukraine
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meeting together in Kiev,
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and basically thus
signifying east and west unified
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across the country to...
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For the whole,
all of Ukraine to see
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and recognize this pilgrimage
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is bringing the
two sides together
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that they are
faithful Ukrainians,
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even though they're part of
the Russian Orthodox Church.
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Well, the concern from a
national security perspective
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is that some of the
leadership in Ukraine felt,
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well, while these people that
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are part of the
Moscow Patriarchate,
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even though
they're Ukrainian citizens,
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there could be other
elements among them, i.e.
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Russians or
people that would cause
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inside rebellion.
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Russia Eastern Orthodox... Yes.
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Living in Ukraine.
00:10:04.10\00:10:05.43
Yes, that was their concern.
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And so that started
to evolve into discussion
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at the public
on the public level
00:10:10.54\00:10:12.87
national level
newspapers and so forth.
00:10:12.91\00:10:15.11
And what
happened is the Ukrainian,
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the state
security service of Ukraine
00:10:17.71\00:10:19.81
also got involved
and they did identify,
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I think it was
just a few instances,
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maybe one person or two
that had pro-Russian flags
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that were part of
the group along the way,
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'cause the movement
as the pilgrimage moved
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towards Ukraine,
more people joined.
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So taking a few photos of that
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and then publishing
that in a booklet format
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that the state
security service of Ukraine did,
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the journalist in
Ukraine obtained copies.
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And, of course, once it
hit the tabloids and the news,
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it just kind of went national.
00:10:48.54\00:10:50.38
And at that
point, everybody said,
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no, this is actually a movement
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to overthrow the
government in Kiev.
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So things really started
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to spin out of
control at that point.
00:10:58.39\00:11:00.59
But it just does...
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It goes to emphasize
the aspect of how religion,
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especially if it's closely
identified with government
00:11:05.03\00:11:08.06
can be something that,
00:11:08.10\00:11:09.43
I mean, it has
explosive potential, right?
00:11:09.46\00:11:12.07
Things can really
go in a wrong direction
00:11:12.10\00:11:14.37
or be misinterpreted.
00:11:14.40\00:11:15.74
Yeah.
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And the role of
the Orthodox Church
00:11:17.14\00:11:20.01
in Eastern
Europe has been powerful
00:11:20.04\00:11:22.24
and communism didn't
do much, couldn't do much
00:11:22.28\00:11:25.35
to diminish it even
though Stalin sent...
00:11:25.38\00:11:28.58
Was a huge number,
00:11:28.62\00:11:29.95
I think 50,000
priests were executed.
00:11:29.98\00:11:31.99
Yeah.
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But once communism evaporated,
00:11:33.39\00:11:35.26
we find that Eastern Orthodox
00:11:35.29\00:11:37.36
identity very, very strong.
00:11:37.39\00:11:39.13
And as you and I were
talking before this program
00:11:39.16\00:11:42.16
Vladimir Putin has
been at great pains
00:11:42.20\00:11:44.67
to show solidarity
with the Eastern Orthodox.
00:11:44.70\00:11:48.14
And I think Kirill
is still the patriarch,
00:11:48.17\00:11:51.41
but he gave him an office
00:11:51.44\00:11:53.78
in the Kremlin, right?
00:11:53.81\00:11:57.71
Very close to his
church and state together.
00:11:57.75\00:12:02.25
But we wish them the best.
00:12:02.28\00:12:03.62
We don't want
religious or political conflict.
00:12:03.65\00:12:05.75
Yeah.
00:12:05.79\00:12:07.12
And any religion practiced
00:12:07.16\00:12:09.32
sincerely should lead
to harmony and brotherhood.
00:12:09.36\00:12:12.16
But that's not
the case very often,
00:12:12.19\00:12:15.76
but even as you're
talking about this,
00:12:15.80\00:12:18.03
I'm reminded of something
in the not so distant future.
00:12:18.07\00:12:21.24
Remember the United
States intervene with
00:12:21.27\00:12:24.74
other European
powers in the Balkans,
00:12:24.77\00:12:29.38
the thing there with
Yugoslavia and breakaway Kosovo,
00:12:29.41\00:12:32.31
it was Bosnia
first, then Kosovo.
00:12:32.35\00:12:35.15
And I remember a crucial point
00:12:35.18\00:12:38.09
when the Serbians
were under attack,
00:12:38.12\00:12:43.46
a Russian
military convoy came down,
00:12:43.49\00:12:46.83
basically a
flying wedge across...
00:12:46.86\00:12:49.20
I'm trying to
think of my geography.
00:12:49.23\00:12:51.20
They had to go across
some rather unfriendly land
00:12:51.23\00:12:54.30
to get there, but
they ran a rescue mission
00:12:54.34\00:12:56.50
to help their
fellow Eastern Orthodox
00:12:56.54\00:12:58.84
in the Balkans.
00:12:58.87\00:13:00.21
Yeah. So the
ties are very strong.
00:13:00.24\00:13:02.01
Yeah.
00:13:02.04\00:13:03.38
And further back, I
can remember growing up
00:13:03.41\00:13:05.38
my father telling me
stories of World War II
00:13:05.41\00:13:08.58
just to...
00:13:08.62\00:13:10.15
Now that area of the Balkans,
00:13:10.19\00:13:12.19
just across the
Adriatic from Italy,
00:13:12.22\00:13:14.62
very close it's
almost like a lake across.
00:13:14.66\00:13:16.99
I remember that
when we flew across
00:13:17.03\00:13:19.13
5-10-minute flight, no more.
00:13:19.16\00:13:21.53
And the Serbs and the Croats,
00:13:21.56\00:13:25.53
the Eastern Orthodox
00:13:25.57\00:13:26.97
and the
Catholics fought bitterly,
00:13:27.00\00:13:28.54
and there were horrible abuses.
00:13:28.57\00:13:30.27
Yeah.
00:13:30.31\00:13:31.64
Perpetrated
there at World War II.
00:13:31.67\00:13:34.01
So those people of those
faith, they remember that stuff,
00:13:34.04\00:13:37.38
those sort of conflict.
00:13:37.41\00:13:39.01
We've gotten used to
the Palestinian Israeli
00:13:39.05\00:13:42.08
divide in the Middle East.
00:13:42.12\00:13:43.45
And that's...
00:13:43.49\00:13:44.82
Well, it goes back to
Bible times, but as far as
00:13:44.85\00:13:47.36
the political
dislocation, it's a lifetime,
00:13:47.39\00:13:49.96
but these other
things, they go back.
00:13:49.99\00:13:51.96
Centuries. Many, many centuries.
00:13:51.99\00:13:54.46
So yeah, there's
this thing in Kiev
00:13:54.50\00:14:00.04
around Kiev is we
have to pray for them.
00:14:00.07\00:14:03.64
What else in that area
has taken your attention?
00:14:03.67\00:14:05.51
But maybe we
should take a break first.
00:14:05.54\00:14:07.04
We've reached a
nice break point.
00:14:07.08\00:14:08.78
So stay with us.
00:14:08.81\00:14:10.15
And we'll cast our
net around this world
00:14:10.18\00:14:13.11
to see where there are
some interesting religious
00:14:13.15\00:14:16.42
and religious liberty anomalies.
00:14:16.45\00:14:17.85