Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI210500A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:29 This is a program designed to inform you 00:31 on religious liberty developments in the US 00:34 and around the world, and to give background 00:37 to some of these things. 00:39 My name is Lincoln Steed, 00:40 editor of Liberty magazine for 22 years. 00:44 And my guest is Ed Cooke, 00:47 a long time Liberty author. 00:51 You got a doctorate in church state studies 00:52 from Baylor University, 00:53 which, that's a pretty good sheepskin to carry. 00:56 Yes, for sure. And you live in Texas. 00:58 You're a writer, you're a researcher, 01:00 you're a book reviewer and many, many things, pastor. 01:04 Yes. 01:05 So let's talk about what's on your mind. 01:07 I know you have a topic that I think 01:09 really is going to be illuminating for, I guess. 01:12 Yep, for sure. 01:14 So, you know, some of the things 01:15 that we've been discussing recently have dealt 01:17 with one would say religions and believers 01:21 and the dynamic of state security 01:24 and how it relates to the overall picture, right? 01:27 So we've taken time to touch on a couple of things 01:29 and historical context of looking at Nazi Germany, 01:33 and then also looking at things more in our day, 01:35 as well as current situations in some other countries. 01:39 So one of the things that 01:40 I've had an interest in wanting to, 01:42 you know, maybe dialogue and discuss a little bit more, 01:45 is that with North Korea that is, you know, 01:48 I have to admit at the beginning 01:51 of our discussion, Lincoln, I used to think that, 01:54 okay, it was total repression, persecution, 01:57 no aspect for religion to exist whatsoever. 02:01 However, I've taken time doing a little bit more reading 02:04 and research, and there's the periods 02:07 of the different leaders that they've had there, right? 02:09 In Korea, you're talking about. 02:11 Yes. In North Korea. 02:12 So you've got... Kim family that... 02:14 Correct. The only modern rulers. 02:15 Yes. Since World War II. 02:17 So you've got the father and then you've got his son. 02:19 And then now the current which would be the grandson 02:22 of the original leader, right? 02:24 Kim. The original Kim. 02:26 Yes. 02:28 I did not know it, but the original Kim, 02:31 Kim Il-sung was actually raised as a Christian. 02:34 Both of his parents were part of the Presbyterian faith, 02:37 and his father served as one of the elders in the church. 02:41 And he himself actually was a teacher 02:44 of the Sunday school at a period of his upbringing 02:47 and individuals that have studied some of his writings 02:50 and the legacy that he has left to his son Kim Jong-il. 02:55 And then the current leader there of the Kim family. 02:59 They recognize the influence of Christianity 03:01 upon the original Kim Il-sung's upbringing. 03:06 So that's something that you know, I thought... 03:08 I hadn't even picked up on that, 03:10 but what we know in today's Korea, 03:15 no religion is encouraged because all religions 03:19 are seen as competitors to the cult of the leader 03:23 and what they're trying to develop in North Korea, 03:26 they're called Juche. 03:27 Yeah. 03:28 The religion of the state. Yep. 03:30 It's not so much spiritual as national 03:32 and oriented to the leader. 03:35 Yep. Yeah, that is true. 03:36 So that is the... 03:38 More recently, 03:39 maybe I'm putting it in context right, 03:41 back in the 1950s, it was Juche, 03:44 J-U-C-H-E ideology, 03:47 which in the term itself, the Korean term, 03:50 it means basically self-reliance. 03:53 So as that has developed the legacy that Kim Il-sung 03:57 left to Kim Jong-il, and also the current, 04:01 his grandson, is now something that they've developed 04:04 and they've actually named it after him. 04:06 So they've taken the name Juche and actually given it to him, 04:10 the founder's name that they've centered, yeah. 04:13 So, what do you think is the future 04:15 for religious freedom in North Korea? 04:18 Is there a future? 04:20 Again the phenomena I find is that when you compare that, 04:25 for example, the constitution of North Korea 04:27 with the constitution in Russia and other countries 04:30 that we have tended to look at as being more totalitarian 04:35 or more of a dictatorship, 04:38 the concept of religious freedom 04:40 is contained in their constitution. 04:42 I think that's more of a, it's a public face, right? 04:45 Yeah. Well... 04:46 They're wanting to have buy-in 04:49 from the international community and accept it. 04:51 I think they believe in it, 04:53 but what they mean by it is not we mean by it. 04:56 Correct. 04:57 So looking at that, in the context of North Korea, 05:01 they do have that idea of being able to grant freedom 05:05 for an individual to believe or not to believe 05:08 and scholars that have studied the legacy 05:11 of Kim Il-sung attribute that to his upbringing 05:14 as a Christian. 05:16 And when we actually look at some of his speeches 05:18 and the development of the Juche ideology, 05:22 he actually did allow, for example, 05:25 when they were moving towards socialism 05:27 and then developing into a full communist state, 05:31 there was a period there where he said that those that don't, 05:34 do not adopt and embrace Juche ideology, 05:38 let us take them by the hand and walk together with them. 05:42 So in other words, it was not an outright saying, 05:44 okay, abolish all Christians, 05:47 make them leave the state or become, 05:49 you know, renounce their faith. 05:51 So very kind re-education in other words. 05:53 Yes. 05:54 And the interesting thing, though, 05:56 when we compare to Asian countries, 05:57 like for example, China, as compared to North Korea, 06:01 we do see a distinct difference because in North Korea, 06:04 there is that Juche ideology which allowed for, 06:08 you might say Christians that were not fully convinced. 06:12 Maybe I can use that word to remain in this state 06:15 to still be identified as part of the Korean populous 06:19 part of the body politic. 06:23 So there was a period there where they were given 06:25 that allowance, then moving into the early 1970s. 06:30 You find more of a shift where, yes, it was more specific 06:33 to the idea of implementing communist ideology, 06:37 where, okay, we don't actually embrace 06:40 and endorse and support religion, 06:42 but there was not an outright repression as we find, 06:46 like in China and in some other countries 06:49 in their past, right? 06:51 Like under in Russia, they had periods 06:53 where there were more of a purge, 06:56 a time period of under the Bolsheviks and so forth. 06:59 So in the modern context, you find the legacy 07:02 that Kim Il-sung has left to his grandson 07:05 where there's still that element of Christians 07:08 that, again, it's caveated by the aspect, 07:12 as long as it's something that is not dividing 07:14 the Korean populace is not harming them 07:17 in the eyes of the state, they define that. 07:20 And it is something that can be beneficial. 07:22 They allow some room for that. 07:26 Yeah. At the same time... 07:28 They can practice very little. Correct. 07:31 Because there are reports coming out of North Korea that, 07:34 you know, there's persecution that has taken place certainly. 07:36 Yeah, I've read, I think Voice of the Martyrs reports 07:39 and so on that people 07:41 clandestinely meeting in North Korea, 07:44 but it's a pretty repressive regime 07:47 to any independent door, not just religion 07:50 and what my characterization of North Korea is, 07:53 it's a paranoid state. 07:56 If you study the history like so much of the world, 08:01 they were turned upside down first 08:03 by the Japanese invasions before World War II. 08:08 And then World War II of course broke everything apart. 08:11 So in the post-colonial era, they had to choose, 08:15 and the grandfather chose an alliance with communism. 08:20 I'm not really sure he was a doctrinaire communist. 08:26 They have a doctrinaire North Korean communism, 08:29 but he made it in his own image. 08:31 But remember even though he started the war, 08:35 he did it thinking that this was a high 08:37 and holy cause to reunite his people divided 08:40 by the hegemony of Japan, 08:45 and then aided better by the Western powers. 08:48 So he felt that he was right, 08:49 but even though they started the war, the way it ended, 08:53 you know, 2 million North Koreans killed, 08:55 that's a lot of people. 08:57 And the war's never been ended. 09:02 We don't acknowledge that, there's been no peace treaty. 09:04 They just had a ceasefire. 09:05 So they were expecting a further attack. 09:08 So in that sort of environment, the west cannot be separated 09:12 from its Christian identity or Christian association. 09:17 So I can't see that even with the intimations 09:21 of liberalization behind the scenes, 09:24 the Christianity stands any chance under the Kim's. 09:28 Yeah. And I would... 09:29 It's marked as the enemy's religion. 09:33 I would say that generally speaking 09:36 and I'd say probably even for the most part, 09:39 well, that would be a correct assessment. 09:40 Now, a few things to tease out of your last statement, right? 09:45 We do see a parallel between North Korea and China 09:48 in regards to Christian missionaries 09:51 from the west, right? 09:52 In other words, a foreign entity 09:54 or a foreign power that is sending somebody 09:56 that is not part of that nation 09:59 into that nation for religious purposes. 10:01 So, as far as being open to missionaries 10:04 and that kind of work that they may do there, 10:06 certainly not North Korea is not open to that at all. 10:09 And whether one would say, 10:13 and from a Christian perspective, definitely, 10:15 unfortunately that Christian ideals 10:18 and principles were morphed 10:20 into a political system quasi form 10:26 of communism we may say. 10:27 And morphed into a state cult in essence 10:31 is what has developed now. 10:33 So even though there had been overtures, and even some, 10:37 we might say at least a semblance of recognition 10:39 and respect for Christianity along the way, 10:42 it is something that has now developed where in essence, 10:46 to be recognized as patriotic in North Korea, 10:50 you need to have respect 10:51 and a Bayesians to the Supreme leader 10:54 rather than to Christianity or Jesus. 10:57 And then they've had a long time to work 10:59 on the population. 11:01 And in another program, you and I were talking 11:02 about the Nazification of Germany. 11:06 People brainwashed. 11:07 It's nothing to what they've done in North Korea. 11:09 There's a whole couple of generations that have been 11:13 totally brainwashed and cut off from those wheel. 11:16 They have no point of reference. 11:18 So I, we want Christian missions 11:21 to advance there. 11:22 And I remember reading a wonderful story 11:24 in North Korea of a family in a farming area. 11:28 And North Korea is a country. 11:30 It's basically the rural part of Korea. 11:33 It's sort of like West Virginia. 11:36 I mean, that's sounds bad on a certain level, but you, 11:38 what I mean it's the, or Georgia or somewhere, 11:41 it's the, it's the deep south of Korea. 11:44 And so they were always a bit, 11:47 at the country cousin type thing. 11:50 So out on one of the farms, they were studying 11:52 the Bible clandestinely and an authority figure 11:57 with one of the neighbors come smashing on the door, 12:00 bursting and accusing them of reading the Bible. 12:02 And this woman suddenly noticed with horror, 12:04 they'd left the Bible semi exposed. 12:08 And as this neighbor with the authority figure 12:13 goes around looking, 12:15 she sees the neighbor must've seen the Bible, 12:17 but amazingly, they, you know, 12:19 after some words of warning leave, 12:21 and then a few minutes later, there's a knock at the door, 12:23 it's the neighbor. 12:24 And he says, I saw the Bible. 12:26 He says, I too am studying it or whatever, you know, 12:28 there's you hope that's true. 12:31 Probably is. 12:33 So, you know, God's Spirit still moves on hearts, 12:36 but I think there's, it's a stony ground 12:38 as it comes because of the state. 12:40 They've done pretty well at extirpating 12:44 what we would think of as is biblical faith. 12:49 So we can just pray that somehow 12:52 God will break up that system, 12:56 it wouldn't be a favor to the country if it turned 12:58 into a decadent Western style you know, sort of a Gomorrah, 13:03 but any break up might open common people 13:07 to hearing more freely different ideas. 13:11 And in particular, a true gospel presentation. 13:16 I know there's another country that's been on your mind too. 13:20 Yeah. 13:21 So, and this is probably would be something 13:24 that would involve maybe a little bit more 13:26 one would say a discussion, 13:28 but India is a country that... 13:32 Let's a take a break there. 13:33 We're a little bit early for the break, 13:34 but this is the natural split. 13:36 Stay with us. 13:37 And we'll talk about religious liberty in India. 13:39 And at the moment, India is in the news with the thousands, 13:43 many thousands dying from COVID 13:45 and a public health emergency of the first order. 13:48 But we'll talk about religion in that great continent. |
Revised 2021-07-23