Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
designed to inform you
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on religious liberty
developments in the US
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and around the world,
and to give background
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to some of these things.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
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editor of Liberty
magazine for 22 years.
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And my guest is Ed Cooke,
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a long time Liberty author.
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You got a doctorate
in church state studies
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from Baylor University,
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which, that's a pretty
good sheepskin to carry.
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Yes, for sure.
And you live in Texas.
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You're a writer,
you're a researcher,
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you're a book reviewer
and many, many things, pastor.
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Yes.
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So let's talk about
what's on your mind.
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I know you have a
topic that I think
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really is going to be
illuminating for, I guess.
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Yep, for sure.
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So, you know, some of the things
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that we've been
discussing recently have dealt
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with one would say
religions and believers
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and the dynamic
of state security
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and how it relates to
the overall picture, right?
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So we've taken time to
touch on a couple of things
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and historical context
of looking at Nazi Germany,
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and then also looking
at things more in our day,
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as well as current situations
in some other countries.
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So one of the things that
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I've had an
interest in wanting to,
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you know, maybe dialogue
and discuss a little bit more,
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is that with North
Korea that is, you know,
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I have to admit at the beginning
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of our discussion,
Lincoln, I used to think that,
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okay, it was total
repression, persecution,
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no aspect for
religion to exist whatsoever.
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However, I've taken time
doing a little bit more reading
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and research, and
there's the periods
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of the different leaders
that they've had there, right?
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In Korea, you're talking about.
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Yes. In North Korea.
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So you've got...
Kim family that...
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Correct. The only modern rulers.
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Yes. Since World War II.
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So you've got the father
and then you've got his son.
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And then now the current
which would be the grandson
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of the original leader, right?
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Kim. The original Kim.
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Yes.
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I did not know it,
but the original Kim,
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Kim Il-sung was
actually raised as a Christian.
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Both of his parents were
part of the Presbyterian faith,
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and his father served as
one of the elders in the church.
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And he himself
actually was a teacher
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of the Sunday school at
a period of his upbringing
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and individuals that have
studied some of his writings
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and the legacy that he has
left to his son Kim Jong-il.
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And then the current
leader there of the Kim family.
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They recognize the
influence of Christianity
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upon the original
Kim Il-sung's upbringing.
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So that's something
that you know, I thought...
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I hadn't even picked up on that,
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but what we know
in today's Korea,
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no religion is
encouraged because all religions
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are seen as competitors
to the cult of the leader
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and what they're trying
to develop in North Korea,
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they're called Juche.
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Yeah.
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The religion of the state. Yep.
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It's not so much
spiritual as national
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and oriented to the leader.
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Yep. Yeah, that is true.
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So that is the...
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More recently,
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maybe I'm putting
it in context right,
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back in the 1950s, it was Juche,
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J-U-C-H-E ideology,
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which in the term
itself, the Korean term,
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it means
basically self-reliance.
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So as that has developed
the legacy that Kim Il-sung
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left to Kim Jong-il,
and also the current,
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his grandson, is now
something that they've developed
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and they've
actually named it after him.
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So they've taken the name Juche
and actually given it to him,
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the founder's name
that they've centered, yeah.
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So, what do you
think is the future
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for religious
freedom in North Korea?
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Is there a future?
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Again the phenomena I find
is that when you compare that,
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for example, the
constitution of North Korea
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with the constitution in
Russia and other countries
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that we have tended to look
at as being more totalitarian
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or more of a dictatorship,
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the concept of religious freedom
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is contained in
their constitution.
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I think that's more of a,
it's a public face, right?
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Yeah. Well...
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They're wanting to have buy-in
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from the international
community and accept it.
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I think they believe in it,
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but what they mean by
it is not we mean by it.
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Correct.
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So looking at that, in
the context of North Korea,
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they do have that idea of
being able to grant freedom
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for an individual to
believe or not to believe
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and scholars that
have studied the legacy
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of Kim Il-sung
attribute that to his upbringing
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as a Christian.
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And when we actually
look at some of his speeches
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and the development
of the Juche ideology,
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he actually did
allow, for example,
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when they were
moving towards socialism
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and then developing
into a full communist state,
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there was a period there where
he said that those that don't,
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do not adopt and
embrace Juche ideology,
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let us take them by the hand
and walk together with them.
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So in other words, it
was not an outright saying,
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okay, abolish all Christians,
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make them leave
the state or become,
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you know, renounce their faith.
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So very kind
re-education in other words.
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Yes.
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And the
interesting thing, though,
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when we compare
to Asian countries,
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like for example, China,
as compared to North Korea,
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we do see a distinct difference
because in North Korea,
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there is that Juche
ideology which allowed for,
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you might say Christians
that were not fully convinced.
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Maybe I can use that
word to remain in this state
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to still be identified as
part of the Korean populous
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part of the body politic.
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So there was a period
there where they were given
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that allowance, then
moving into the early 1970s.
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You find more of a shift
where, yes, it was more specific
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to the idea of
implementing communist ideology,
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where, okay, we
don't actually embrace
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and endorse and
support religion,
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but there was not an
outright repression as we find,
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like in China and
in some other countries
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in their past, right?
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Like under in
Russia, they had periods
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where there
were more of a purge,
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a time period of under
the Bolsheviks and so forth.
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So in the modern
context, you find the legacy
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that Kim Il-sung
has left to his grandson
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where there's still
that element of Christians
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that, again, it's
caveated by the aspect,
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as long as it's
something that is not dividing
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the Korean
populace is not harming them
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in the eyes of the
state, they define that.
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And it is something
that can be beneficial.
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They allow some room for that.
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Yeah. At the same time...
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They can practice
very little. Correct.
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Because there are reports
coming out of North Korea that,
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you know, there's persecution
that has taken place certainly.
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Yeah, I've read, I think
Voice of the Martyrs reports
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and so on that people
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clandestinely
meeting in North Korea,
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but it's a
pretty repressive regime
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to any independent
door, not just religion
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and what my characterization
of North Korea is,
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it's a paranoid state.
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If you study the history
like so much of the world,
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they were turned
upside down first
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by the Japanese
invasions before World War II.
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And then World War II of
course broke everything apart.
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So in the post-colonial
era, they had to choose,
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and the grandfather chose
an alliance with communism.
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I'm not really sure he
was a doctrinaire communist.
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They have a doctrinaire
North Korean communism,
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but he made it in his own image.
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But remember even
though he started the war,
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he did it thinking
that this was a high
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and holy cause to
reunite his people divided
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by the hegemony of Japan,
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and then aided better
by the Western powers.
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So he felt that he was right,
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but even though they started
the war, the way it ended,
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you know, 2 million
North Koreans killed,
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that's a lot of people.
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And the war's never been ended.
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We don't acknowledge that,
there's been no peace treaty.
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They just had a ceasefire.
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So they were
expecting a further attack.
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So in that sort of environment,
the west cannot be separated
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from its Christian identity
or Christian association.
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So I can't see that
even with the intimations
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of liberalization
behind the scenes,
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the Christianity stands
any chance under the Kim's.
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Yeah. And I would...
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It's marked as
the enemy's religion.
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I would say that
generally speaking
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and I'd say probably
even for the most part,
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well, that would be
a correct assessment.
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Now, a few things to tease out
of your last statement, right?
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We do see a parallel
between North Korea and China
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in regards to
Christian missionaries
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from the west, right?
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In other words, a foreign entity
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or a foreign power
that is sending somebody
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that is not part of that nation
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into that nation
for religious purposes.
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So, as far as being
open to missionaries
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and that kind of work
that they may do there,
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certainly not North Korea
is not open to that at all.
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And whether one would say,
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and from a Christian
perspective, definitely,
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unfortunately
that Christian ideals
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and principles were morphed
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into a political
system quasi form
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of communism we may say.
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And morphed into a
state cult in essence
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is what has developed now.
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So even though there had
been overtures, and even some,
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we might say at least a
semblance of recognition
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and respect for
Christianity along the way,
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it is something that has
now developed where in essence,
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to be recognized as
patriotic in North Korea,
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you need to have respect
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and a Bayesians
to the Supreme leader
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rather than to
Christianity or Jesus.
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And then they've
had a long time to work
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on the population.
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And in another
program, you and I were talking
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about the
Nazification of Germany.
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People brainwashed.
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It's nothing to what
they've done in North Korea.
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There's a whole couple of
generations that have been
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totally brainwashed and
cut off from those wheel.
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They have no point of reference.
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So I, we want Christian missions
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to advance there.
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And I remember
reading a wonderful story
00:11:22.44\00:11:24.71
in North Korea of a
family in a farming area.
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And North Korea is a country.
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It's basically the
rural part of Korea.
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It's sort of like West Virginia.
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I mean, that's sounds bad
on a certain level, but you,
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what I mean it's the,
or Georgia or somewhere,
00:11:38.83\00:11:41.76
it's the, it's the
deep south of Korea.
00:11:41.80\00:11:44.83
And so they were always a bit,
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at the country
cousin type thing.
00:11:47.64\00:11:50.71
So out on one of the
farms, they were studying
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the Bible clandestinely
and an authority figure
00:11:52.31\00:11:57.48
with one of the neighbors
come smashing on the door,
00:11:57.51\00:12:00.15
bursting and accusing
them of reading the Bible.
00:12:00.18\00:12:02.18
And this woman
suddenly noticed with horror,
00:12:02.22\00:12:04.79
they'd left the
Bible semi exposed.
00:12:04.82\00:12:08.19
And as this neighbor
with the authority figure
00:12:08.22\00:12:13.19
goes around looking,
00:12:13.23\00:12:14.96
she sees the neighbor
must've seen the Bible,
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but amazingly, they, you know,
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after some words
of warning leave,
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and then a few minutes later,
there's a knock at the door,
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it's the neighbor.
00:12:23.17\00:12:24.51
And he says, I saw the Bible.
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He says, I too am studying
it or whatever, you know,
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there's you hope that's true.
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Probably is.
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So, you know, God's
Spirit still moves on hearts,
00:12:33.42\00:12:36.08
but I think
there's, it's a stony ground
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as it comes
because of the state.
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They've done
pretty well at extirpating
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what we would think
of as is biblical faith.
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So we can just pray that somehow
00:12:49.80\00:12:52.53
God will break up that system,
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it wouldn't be a favor
to the country if it turned
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into a decadent Western style
you know, sort of a Gomorrah,
00:12:58.31\00:13:03.01
but any break up
might open common people
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to hearing more
freely different ideas.
00:13:07.92\00:13:11.39
And in particular, a
true gospel presentation.
00:13:11.42\00:13:16.96
I know there's another country
that's been on your mind too.
00:13:16.99\00:13:20.23
Yeah.
00:13:20.26\00:13:21.60
So, and this is
probably would be something
00:13:21.63\00:13:24.13
that would involve
maybe a little bit more
00:13:24.17\00:13:26.17
one would say a discussion,
00:13:26.20\00:13:28.84
but India is a country that...
00:13:28.87\00:13:32.17
Let's a take a break there.
00:13:32.21\00:13:33.54
We're a little bit
early for the break,
00:13:33.58\00:13:34.91
but this is the natural split.
00:13:34.94\00:13:36.28
Stay with us.
00:13:36.31\00:13:37.65
And we'll talk about
religious liberty in India.
00:13:37.68\00:13:39.85
And at the moment, India is
in the news with the thousands,
00:13:39.88\00:13:43.28
many thousands dying from COVID
00:13:43.32\00:13:45.82
and a public health
emergency of the first order.
00:13:45.85\00:13:48.42
But we'll talk about religion
in that great continent.
00:13:48.46\00:13:51.09