Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is your program
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to bring you
information and ideas
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on religious liberty in
the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
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editor of Liberty
Magazine for 22 years.
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And my guest on
this program is Ed Cooke,
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a long time author of
articles in Liberty Magazine,
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a holder of a doctorate
and church state studies
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from Baylor University,
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and a resident of Texas.
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The eyes of Texas are
upon you, if not none other.
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Sure. I'm glad to be here.
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An author, a
researcher, a book reviewer,
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and a pastor.
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So let's talk
about some heavy stuff.
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You and I love history,
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and I think in many
contemporary issues,
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you can't understand
them fully without history.
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And I think on
religious liberty,
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you have to understand history.
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We're going through a
difficult time in the West.
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I think
particularly starting with 9/11
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when those in control
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started rethinking
basic civil liberties
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and infamously a few people,
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I remember hearing them on TV,
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say, I don't care
if the president knows,
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you know, what I'm doing
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in my bathroom or
bedroom, whatever,
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if it helps security, great.
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So they were willing
to give away liberties,
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but that didn't
happen yesterday.
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And in many ways
in our modern era,
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the darkest
possibilities of totalitarianism
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can be seen in
what happened in Germany
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after World War I
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and a whole
series of catastrophes
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that failed Germany, political,
social, and some religious
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ending up with the
national socialists
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or the Nazis.
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And I know some
people just go bananas
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if there's any illusion
made or worse comparison
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between anything happening now
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and in the Nazi era.
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But unfortunately,
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there's lessons to be learned
and there are often parallels
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that I think need
to become an add-on.
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And we can't just dodge it
because it offends someone.
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This was a horrible period,
just a lifetime before us,
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you know, I was
born, maybe I'm dinosaur,
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but, you know, I was born
only a few years after the war.
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I knew nothing of it,
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but, you know,
that's, that's a lifespan
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and in the sweep
of human history,
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that's yesterday.
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True.
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You know, the
atomic bomb was developed,
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you know, right at
the end of that war
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and that shapes our
world big time today,
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or it should.
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Yeah.
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There's still
discussions, you know,
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about nuclear armaments
and trying to reduce those
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and the countries
that still have weapons,
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there's monitoring that goes on.
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And, so, you know, we
can't ignore Hiroshima
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when you're talking
about modern day disarmament
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and no more when
you're talking about
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a loss of civil liberties
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and religious
restriction in different places,
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or worse than
religious restriction,
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religious
hijacking by a given order.
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This is what
happened in Germany, isn't it?
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Yeah.
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I was going to
even going to say that
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one may say that,
okay, this happened way back
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in what the 1940s over
what, 70, 80 years ago.
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And yet it's something
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that still
impacts the modern day,
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because Germany has a law
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against the
displaying of the Nazi symbol.
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It's against the law to do that.
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However, in
contrast, like here in America,
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we have freedom of expression.
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There's people that
wear the symbol of Nazism,
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you know, in America.
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So...
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I thought the
parallel we get to make is
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they display the rebel flag,
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which I think is rude.
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Whether it's illegal,
that's another question.
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Lot of discussion
and debate about that
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in our country, right?
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I mean, tying
back to the civil war
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and the outcomes
of that and so forth.
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And yet people
that should know better
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would might defend that.
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And yet they
don't see the analogy
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between flag desecration.
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And I've mentioned
on this program before,
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it's a good time to repeat here.
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I remember hearing
Antonin Scalia once in person
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talking about many things
and he was quite provocative.
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And he then said
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how he found it
personally distasteful
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that some of the hippies
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back in my youth
were burning the flag.
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But when he and his
fellow justices got together,
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they felt that it was
within people's rights
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to burn that flag.
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And he said, he went home
and his own wife attacked him.
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How dare you make
that decision order?
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So we allowed flag
desecration in the US
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and I don't know
all the laws on it,
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but it seems to me
it's not a jailable offense
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to waive the flag
of the Confederacy,
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but yet that's a
very inflammatory act.
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And you're right, in Germany
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they've decided it was
such a horrible period,
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legally exclude those things.
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And why?
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Because Germany went
off the rails in every area
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and on religion,
most of all, I think.
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True.
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You know, Germany
is when Martin Luther
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arose the Reformation.
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They were
lightened by an illumination
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of God's Word
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and an understanding
of righteous by faith,
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not through works, you
know, the Catholic Church
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and all of the mechanisms
of the Medieval Church.
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So when one asks, or
may ask you a question.
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How did they go off trail?
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Not only go off trail.
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Religion led the way
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in supporting this
murderous regime, didn't they?
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True.
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Yeah, so when one
looks at the history,
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one would say kind of leading up
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to the development of Nazism,
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there were a variety of factors.
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One, of course, I
think we've talked,
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you and I have talked about
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a little bit before personally
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dealing with the
carryover from World War I.
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One you may say
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the unfairness or the injustice,
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at least from the
German perspective
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of getting the
short end of that deal,
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financial aspects,
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and then also the
turmoil within the country,
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because you had the
presence of the Jewish faith,
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Jewish believers there
that individuals that were.
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Here's another interesting point
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from a
philosophical perspective.
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Nietzsche in back
in the century prior
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in the 1880s,
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in some of his
writings had written
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what some people today interpret
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and look at is
being maybe anti-Semitic.
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Whereas other people
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that would defend
Nietzsche as an author
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would say that
was not his intent.
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I won't go into that
debate, but nonetheless,
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it's part of
history that was there.
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That one could
say, maybe precipitated
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some of the
things that developed.
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The history of anti-Semitism
in Europe is very plain.
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From the very
beginning of Christianity,
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the Jews were the other,
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and their own
words are not there.
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I shouldn't say they,
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Jewish words by the priests
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and their supporters
were used where they said,
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you know, his
blood be upon our head,
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but I don't see
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how that creates
a corporate guilt.
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And the Bible says those
that pierced Him will be...
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Will see. Will
see Him in His glory.
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It doesn't say the
whole Jewish nation.
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In fact, Paul says that
they haven't been rejected.
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He says, lest you be
wise in your own conceits,
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but it took root in
medieval Christianity...
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Through the pogroms,
the Catholic Church pogrom.
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Well, the Catholic
Church created this idea.
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These are the people rejected.
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We are now the favored ones.
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And then with Martin Luther,
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that's when I think
the modern troubles began.
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He had his own
cultural, personal biases
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and he played those out big.
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Some of the stuff
that Martin Luther
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wrote against the Jews,
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you can't reconcile it
with any Christian sensibility.
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It was just him and
his personal hatred.
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And it's quite murderous.
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It's not just like
you say about Nietzsche,
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perhaps you could say, well,
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give me the
benefit of the doubt.
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You can't say that
with Martin Luther,
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it's very open.
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So I think in the
modern Protestant Lutheran era,
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Martin Luther
laid that groundwork.
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And part of what was
continued from the papal days
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through Lutheranism,
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the Jews were excluded
from a lot of activities.
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They were herded
together in ghettos very often.
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They were restricted in
trays that they could carry on.
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They were labeled with...
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And ironically
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you can in the Bible make a case
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that we shouldn't take usury
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and we shouldn't
take financial advantage
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of other people,
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like in the Old
Testament, even buying land,
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it was supposed
to be repatriated
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after 50 years.
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So the Jews were forced
into this money making realm
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to carry on
what a good Christian
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wouldn't do at that time.
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So that's sort of took root
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and as they became
successful financially,
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there was jealousy and so on.
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So it all played
out that by the time
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the Nazis came along,
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there was a ready
suspicion of them,
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even though I've read articles
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that in the 20s and early
years of the 20th century,
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Germany was
described as the most friendly
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and suitable place
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for the Jewish
population to live in
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the whole Western world.
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But, once the
Nazis played on that,
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there was a
ready field of distrust
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of Jews and good Christians.
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You know, another
thing that one can say is
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like we're talking
about here, we're teasing out
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different threads
of not only religion,
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philosophy, financial factors,
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ethnic
differences that culminated
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one can say all of
those threads came together
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to make a final
product, end product, right?
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Being Nazi Germany
and the final solution
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as Hitler referred to it,
the annihilation of the Jews.
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But one of the other
things that played into that
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was along the scientific realm
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where you looked at
the aspect of Darwinism,
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yes, correct
social Darwinism, where...
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I was hoping we
would get to that.
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Scientifically, where they
said that there are differences
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between races, and...
00:10:45.34\00:10:46.81
But we can't directly
relate that to religion.
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That was the social development,
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which was most regrettable,
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and pseudoscience was at
play all around the world.
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The US was
lobotomizing, sterilizing.
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It had its own
miscegenation laws.
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In fact, the Nazis
modeled this after US
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prohibitions on
into marriage and so on.
00:11:07.80\00:11:09.93
So the prejudices of
races around the world
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had been encouraged by Darwinism
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or Darwin's theory and eugenics.
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I've got several
eugenics books at home.
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I was reading one the other day.
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If you sort of suspend
your critical faculties,
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it all makes sense
and sounds very harmless.
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The idea which we know
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is still a
factor in any society,
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and the US is seeing it,
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this declining birth
rates among the educated
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and those less educated
and less self-sufficient
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have many more children.
00:11:44.10\00:11:45.43
They become a burden to society.
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And then they're less
likely to be educated.
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So there's a social inversion.
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I mean, that's true,
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but the solution is
not to eliminate people.
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The solution should be to help.
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And I used the
word with the gentleman
00:11:59.65\00:12:01.72
with the other day
in editorial purposely,
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the untermensch, the under man.
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You know, in a liberal society,
animated by Christian impulses,
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we should do
subtle tweaks in society
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to help those and
elevate those people,
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not to try to breed
them out of existence
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to make up for the
fact that wealthy people
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by definition
have less children.
00:12:23.51\00:12:25.14
You know, in
traditional societies,
00:12:25.17\00:12:26.51
they have more
children to support themselves
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and mote is a hedge
against infant mortality.
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There's just so
many things going on.
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But yes, that was all effective.
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But what I want to get at,
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let's just go back for a minute.
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The fact that when the
Nazis with the clearly stated
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murderous policies
might count published
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about a decade or so before
Hitler actually came to power,
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it was no secret.
00:12:50.50\00:12:52.23
I mean, perhaps people
were willfully ignorant,
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but it wasn't the secret.
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How easily the Lutheran Church,
the Roman Catholic Church,
00:12:56.40\00:13:01.11
not every Catholic,
but the Catholic Church
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with its alliance
and concord it with Rome
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and even Seventh-day Adventist
made alliances with the state
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because Hitler like
many political leaders
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and more than most was willing
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to perjure
himself to get support.
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And I've read the
same thing, he says,
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national socialism is
based on Christianity.
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I mean, yes,
only a gullible fool
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would believe that,
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but there were plenty of
gullible fools at the time.
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They suspended their judgment.
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And I think that's a
salutary listen anywhere,
00:13:34.74\00:13:37.98
even in the US
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when people are now
00:13:39.48\00:13:41.48
so, so determined to
mix religion with politics,
00:13:41.52\00:13:44.65
this sort of inversion and
perversion will take place.
00:13:44.69\00:13:48.06
Certainly.
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And, you know, we see in history
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similar situations that
the closer that religion
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and government intertwine,
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the more danger
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it presents to
society in general, right?
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And in particular, you know,
going back to Nazi, Germany,
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I think that one
of the things that
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when we look at the
history there, we do see,
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yes, there were a
majority of the churches
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across the board,
different denominations
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that lined up with that,
the party line, so to speak.
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There were also some individuals
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like Bonheoffer and some
others that were resistant.
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I'm not that particularly
admirer of Bonheoffer,
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but, you know, put
myself in his shoes.
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If any of us were
there, what would we have done?
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You know, your
life was at threat
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to speak out against the Fuhrer.
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But Bonheoffer,
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I have trouble seeing
him as a general model.
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Remember he was an
agent of the state.
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He was in the secret police.
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Why did he sign up
there to start with?
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I don't see that as admirable.
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And then he got involved
in a plot to kill the Fuhrer.
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I don't feel as a Christian
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that no matter
what system I live in,
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that I am justified in
seeking the physical demise
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of anyone in power.
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And we ought to
pray for our rulers,
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we not to support
them in every way.
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Hitler clearly crossed the line
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where he was asking
things of Christians
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that were accounted
to what God demanded.
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So there should have
been civil disobedience there,
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but to be an
active part of a plan
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to kill the leader, uh...
00:15:21.92\00:15:25.22
That part, I...
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And I see
Bonheoffer as well-intentioned,
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and I mean, at
least in, toward the end,
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and you have to admire
someone who gave his life
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trying to stand for principle,
but I just don't see him
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as a good model for
behavior at all points.
00:15:39.47\00:15:41.90
Sure.
00:15:41.94\00:15:43.27
But there were a
number of Catholics
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and Lutherans,
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I don't know
too many Adventists.
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I mean, they might be,
00:15:50.78\00:15:52.11
but I know of
Catholics and Lutherans
00:15:52.15\00:15:54.05
that wouldn't go
into the military
00:15:54.08\00:15:56.35
when they were asked.
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And, you know, now, I
mean, when I was young,
00:15:58.09\00:16:00.09
you could go to Canada.
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You know, I don't know
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if too many of them went to jail
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for refusing to
go into the military.
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I mean, that was the penalty,
but back in the Hitler's era,
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if you refused, you
would likely be shot.
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That was a capital offense.
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I've read some of the trials.
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So you have to admire
the integrity they had.
00:16:17.57\00:16:21.41
Let's take a
break and continue this
00:16:21.44\00:16:25.15
very sensitive discussion,
but very relevant discussion
00:16:25.18\00:16:28.28
of some parallels to a
lifetime ago in Europe.
00:16:28.32\00:16:31.99