Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI210498A
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00:27 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is your program to inform you about religious liberty 00:32 and related topics around the world. 00:34 My name is Lincoln Steed, 00:36 for 22 years editor of Liberty magazine, 00:39 and my guest Ed Cooke. 00:43 Trying to think how to explain your multiple qualifications, 00:48 a doctorate in church state studies 00:49 from Baylor University. 00:51 You're a lecturer, pastor, author, 00:54 book reviewer from Texas, 00:57 and a contributor to Liberty magazine for many years. 01:01 Let's talk about Jina as our president used to say. 01:06 Sure. No, China. 01:10 I remember when I was in college 01:12 studying Chinese history, very captivating to me 01:15 and the message I got that China saw, 01:18 and I think still sees 01:19 most of the world as barbarians out there. 01:22 They're not that interested in going out into that world, 01:26 but unavoidably as now a manufacturing engine 01:30 China is throwing its weight around. 01:33 But in religious liberty 01:35 that weight can get quite heavy, can't it? 01:37 Sure. 01:39 What are some of your concerns about religious liberty 01:41 and civil liberties when we deal with China? 01:44 I think that at the foundational level 01:47 we could say, 01:48 there is the obvious difference in perspective 01:52 between the West and the East, right? 01:54 So for example, in the Eastern, excuse me, 01:56 in Western development, 01:58 especially due to Christianity's influence, 02:00 there's the high regard and respect for the conscience. 02:05 Not throughout the history of Christianity, obviously, 02:07 'cause there was persecutions, the crusades, the inquisition, 02:11 but after that period, 02:12 like from the Protestant Reformation onward, 02:15 a lot of scholastic emphasis 02:18 was placed upon the regard for the conscience, 02:21 the individual civil liberties and rights. 02:24 Whereas over in the East, it's more of a, 02:27 what I always look at as they had 02:29 the communal perspective rather than the individual. 02:32 An individual does not exist as a standalone, 02:35 they exist as part of a community. 02:37 And therefore from that perspective 02:39 on the scale of value, your individual rights 02:42 and liberties and respect for conscience goes down 02:46 and it's more so what is good for the community. 02:48 What is good for the body of the community? 02:51 And because it's not all wrong. 02:52 I mean, even a lot of the Old Testament 02:55 thinking was communal. 02:56 Yep. 02:58 Even repentance was corporate repentance 03:02 along with the individual. 03:04 But, yes, you're right, 03:05 in a general sense Asian culture, 03:08 not just Chinese has a high stake on the responsibility 03:14 to the family, to the country. 03:16 And, of course, Japan in World War II, 03:17 we saw that in a toxic way. 03:21 People going off to war, soldier going off to war 03:24 believed that he was dead. 03:25 And now he lived only for the emperor 03:27 and to be captured or stop fighting 03:31 was such a shame that 03:32 he betrayed not just his family, 03:34 not just himself, but the emperor 03:35 and the country and... 03:36 We saw in the kamikaze attacks there 03:38 where the pilot would die himself. 03:39 Yeah. 03:40 There's plenty of stories that individual kamikazes 03:42 were afraid and didn't want to do it, 03:43 but it was a phenomenon of their culture 03:46 where they were very self-sacrificing 03:48 and I think that was a good thing. 03:51 And what you say about the reformation influence 03:54 on Christianity is very true. 03:56 It was that era that we got individual self-determinism, 04:00 but I don't think that existed in Christianity 04:02 very much before that. 04:03 It was the same idea. 04:05 You are a Christian community, therefore you were set 04:07 against all the others and your own community 04:11 would hold you to a standard 04:14 where you didn't have much choice and if you slipped, 04:16 stepped out alone, you were a betrayer of the community. 04:19 Yeah. 04:20 What we would refer to as the Christian Commonwealth, 04:23 you know, in Roman Catholicism heavily emphasized 04:26 that in the formative years as well, 04:29 all leading up into the time period of the medieval era. 04:31 But one thing... 04:33 I'm leading you somewhere, you're trying to lead the way. 04:35 You wrote an article years ago on this developing idea 04:39 in Roman Catholicism of the common good. 04:41 Yes. 04:42 And for the first time it suddenly clicked with me 04:45 that they haven't brought a new concept. 04:47 They're actually restating the medieval view. 04:50 Yeah. Correct. 04:52 Which would bring with it some of the excesses of the church 04:55 during the Reformation. 04:56 But back to China. 04:57 What's China up to on religion? 05:00 You know, it's a nominally Christian... 05:01 It's a nominally communist state, of course, 05:04 even though it's functioning in a highly market driven way. 05:08 Yeah. 05:09 So one of the things that is a more recent development 05:12 is in 2017 there was a revision of the portion 05:17 of the constitution that relates to the rights 05:20 of citizens in regards to faith to believe, 05:24 not to believe, 05:25 to be part of a religious organization, et cetera. 05:28 And one can say that there's two periods 05:31 that one would look at in this century, right? 05:34 So one was in 2005 05:36 and then the other one was in 2018. 05:39 The law went into effect. 05:40 It was written in 2017, went into effect in 2018. 05:43 What does the law specify? 05:44 So basically the one thing 05:46 that I'll note that is in common between 05:48 both periods is that it refers to, 05:50 or caveats the religious preference 05:53 of a Chinese citizen, 05:55 as long as it is something that is a good religion 05:59 or good for in essence, the country, 06:01 that's the underlying defining factor. 06:04 So under those terms, the communist government 06:07 can actually say, well, we define these religions 06:10 as good for the country because, and they define 06:12 it specifically in that paragraph, 06:13 it is non divisive in the country. 06:15 It does not harm any of the citizens. 06:18 And it is something that can be looked upon as promoting 06:21 the country's good. 06:22 That's how they define it. 06:24 So with that kind of a very specific definition... 06:28 Well, it's specific but applied very... 06:30 Remember Falun Gong, which is not even a religion, 06:34 just a traditional exercise regimen. 06:38 The government is more and more seeing 06:41 this is dangerous to the community. 06:42 Correct. 06:44 And maybe a little later in our discussion on this program, 06:46 we can talk about the other minority group 06:49 dealing with the Uyghurs, 06:50 the Muslim group that is considered to be against. 06:53 Now why is China against the Uyghurs? 06:56 Well, they see it as something that is opposed to the state 07:00 and harmful to the state, i.e. 07:02 they look at it as people that are non-conformist. 07:04 They have a different view and practices that are not only 07:08 vary from traditional Chinese religions, 07:11 like Buddhism, Taoism. 07:14 And then, of course, there's some Christian elements 07:16 in China today, but they look at the Muslims 07:20 as a very specific sect with very strict practices 07:25 that in reality, I think the underlying issue 07:28 is that the Chinese government sees that movement 07:30 as something that leads its believers to have a firm 07:33 adherence to an authority beyond the Chinese government. 07:37 I've been watching. 07:38 And I haven't looked it up to prove that I'm right, 07:42 but by my lights, 07:44 tell me if I'm heading the wrong direction on this. 07:47 The Chinese government didn't really make too much of a thing 07:51 about the Uyghurs until around 9/11, year 2001. 07:55 Correct. 07:56 And yet they're not in lockstep with Western thinking. 07:59 So it's very interesting. 08:01 Yeah. 08:02 And part of the dynamic is that in that part 08:04 of Northern China, where the Uyghurs are, 08:07 tend to be dominant right? 08:08 Is that there has been an overflow from your, 08:11 the middle Eastern countries like that are what we refer 08:14 to as the Stan countries, 08:15 the Tajikistan, Kazakhstan and so on. 08:18 We had an article in Liberty once, 08:20 if there's a Stan after it, 08:21 there's a religious liberty problem. 08:23 Not always, but it's not a bad guideline. 08:26 So that overflow of Muslims into Chinese 08:29 over the border, right? 08:31 And into that part of China. 08:32 So from China's the government perspective, 08:34 they look at that as being a threat to the state 08:37 and issue that they wish to, 08:39 as they would say, they're, here's the term 08:42 they're using in a diplomatic language 08:45 between dialogue between China and the United States. 08:48 They're referring to what these camps that they've set up 08:51 as reeducation camps. 08:53 Now, from a Western perspective, 08:55 there's the reports coming out of that where we have heard 08:58 that they're doing for sterilization, 09:01 they're taking individuals and basically, 09:04 the type of educate, reeducation they're doing 09:07 is more of a forced reprogramming 09:10 denying them of their faith and things of that nature. 09:13 Selective torture, I mean, there's many, 09:15 the whole gamut is going on. 09:18 What I think is going on here is China, 09:23 like I say, 09:24 China is a very ancient... 09:29 It's not a country in the oldest sense, 09:32 but the region that has the, you know, 09:34 there're several subgroups of Chinese, 09:37 but what we understand is the Chinese peoples 09:40 have always had the sense that they are the only ones, 09:43 but with the expansion of slight expansion 09:47 in the early days of Communist China, 09:49 remember they took on Tibet 09:52 and they took the area where the Uyghurs are, 09:55 so they've expanded their borders. 09:57 And I believe that there's a racial, 10:00 cultural issue going on. 10:02 And if you study the Tibetan issue, 10:07 that's clearly ethnic, 10:10 even though you could choose to say 10:12 it's persecution of Buddhism, per se, 10:14 because they are repressing Buddhist behavior 10:17 and the same with the Uyghurs. 10:20 But China hasn't had the dyno of any particularly 10:24 violent incidents analogous to 9/11. 10:27 Correct. 10:29 With the Muslims they've just had complaints 10:32 from the Uyghurs that they're persecuting them. 10:33 And I think that goes back to before 9/11, 10:37 but I believe it in 9/11, 10:39 they got the signal that the West is not going 10:42 to be so offended 10:44 at what they're doing to the Uyghurs, 10:46 so it became more open. 10:47 More accepted. So that's my take. 10:50 So I... 10:51 It's always on religious Liberty, 10:53 it's seldom as simple as my religion is right, 10:57 yours is wrong, therefore I'll harass you. 10:59 There are other mitigating factors, 11:01 but religion brings it to a, you know, a special... 11:05 Spark Point. Yeah, flashpoint. 11:07 Yeah, there's no question. 11:08 And I do think the West needs to say more, 11:12 we've said a lot in support of the Buddhists because many 11:16 Hollywood figures had become enamored with Buddhism. 11:19 So the Dalai Lama is, of course, you know, 11:21 persona celebrated celebrate. 11:25 And in many ways the west has been sympathetic 11:28 to the plight of the Buddhist in Tibet. 11:32 But the Uyghur is not and I think 11:34 partly because we've got this sort of one-eyed 11:37 approach since 9/11 to Islam, 11:39 and we figured they must be up to something there, 11:41 but the Uyghur thing, I've hunted. 11:45 And I haven't found evidence with the Uyghurs 11:47 because of their religion of doing anything 11:49 egregious toward China. 11:50 Correct. I mean, from my... 11:52 Even though there were many Uyghurs in Afghanistan 11:55 when we... 11:56 There were not many, there were a significant number 11:59 of Uyghur missionaries 12:01 or jihadists caught up in that whole thing. 12:05 But again, that doesn't affect China. 12:07 Correct. 12:08 And I think that that would be a valid assessment because, 12:13 you know, when you look at the dynamics 12:15 within China itself, as you pointed out, 12:17 you know, there's different maybe subsets we could look 12:20 at it or classify among the Chinese populace 12:23 themselves ethically, right? 12:25 At the same time, you've got 12:27 a little bit of a Christian presence there, 12:30 predominantly Buddhism, some Daoism, 12:32 and now you've got this group 12:34 of minority group that are Muslims. 12:36 So looking at those dynamics, 12:38 I think that China's biggest problem is trying to 12:42 place itself within the broader global community, 12:45 trying to say, we want to be part of that community. 12:47 We have a place at the table, 12:49 and at the same time they've got some internal issues 12:52 and things they need to work out that at the moment 12:55 it doesn't seem like in the light, 12:57 in the eyes of the rest of the international community, 12:59 they're really taking the best approach towards that. 13:02 But one thing I was gonna mention that I think is 13:04 concerning as well regarding China's approach to the Uyghurs 13:08 is there was an article that came out 13:10 from the New York Times highlighting 13:13 that it's not just in their country, 13:15 that China is actually tracing out 13:18 and finding out where there's Uyghurs that are descendants 13:21 or family ties to people living in China that are Uyghurs 13:24 that are living, Uyghurs living in other countries, 13:26 and basically trying to be oppressive to them 13:29 or tracking where they're at getting 13:31 information and things of that nature. 13:32 Yeah. And that's, yes, I've read that. 13:36 I think that's a function of the globalization 13:39 and intercommunication any number of repressive countries, 13:44 Iran, Russia, China, just to name three, 13:48 but there's others that I've noticed 13:50 seem to be tracking down enemies abroad. 13:52 I mean their citizenry or ancestry. 13:57 I don't know that the mindsets changed, 13:59 but I think the ability to do that now is greater where, 14:02 you know, under the Witness Protection Act in the US, 14:05 you know, a criminal lawyer 14:08 or someone had to give an evidence, 14:09 they could be planted in little town and they'd just disappear. 14:11 That doesn't have it anymore. You can track people down. 14:13 Yeah. 14:15 So yes, there's the long arm of retribution from China. 14:20 But I still believe China is a self-absorbed country 14:23 and would largely wish the world to go away. 14:26 I don't see it as expansionist in the way 14:29 that the old empires were. 14:31 And since we're talking about religion... 14:33 Well, let's take a break. 14:35 I see we're at a nice convenient point. 14:36 Stay with us. 14:37 We'll take this discussion 14:39 in an interesting level when we return. 14:41 Thank you. |
Revised 2021-07-09