Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI210497B
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00:01 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:03 Before the break with guest Ed Cooke, 00:05 we've been getting into the weeds 00:07 of what really grows out of that January 6 image 00:12 that people were transfixed by, 00:13 but particularly I was taken by the prayer session up front. 00:18 And we've been talking about 00:20 the theocratic yearnings of the United States. 00:24 And I think that's what it is 00:26 because it goes back to the very beginning, 00:28 the Massachusetts Bay Colony, 00:30 the Boston experiments there with 00:34 and Hutchinson who was expelled 00:36 for having separate views. 00:37 And it was a godly commonwealth than anything but... 00:40 Yep. 00:43 So, you know, where do you think this is leading? 00:48 Well, you know, I do know this, if we look at the, 00:51 again, the historical trajectory, right? 00:53 So theologically speaking, you've got the foundation 00:57 from Puritan theology 00:58 and dominionism that kind of feed 01:01 into that mindset of America being God's chosen nation 01:05 and also more from the perspective 01:07 of almost a Christian theocracy. 01:10 But if you look back from the roughly 60s onward, 01:13 there has been a growing push 01:16 from different religious groups. 01:17 It started out as the moral majority 01:20 than the Christian coalition, 01:21 and they gained significant national positions 01:25 in elected offices in 1992. 01:28 And then by 1998, 01:29 they had declined significantly, 01:32 but they didn't organize 01:35 and maintain their organizational structure, 01:38 but they started more of a grass roots movement 01:41 that from 1998 up to the present has infiltrated 01:45 in a lot of the state electoral positions 01:49 that from there filter up into the national level. 01:51 So, yeah, that's something that they are still a movement 01:56 that is on the horizon 01:57 that has an impact here in America. 01:59 And, you know, I've been watching this, 02:02 it's during my lifetime and your lifetime. 02:05 And to me, there's an interesting 02:07 phenomenon going, 02:08 this incipient theocracy has always been a lure 02:13 in the United States. 02:14 It's pretty much where we started 02:16 and it's just gotten more and more 02:18 fixed in people's minds, 02:19 I think, but it seems to me it's increased in power 02:24 and lure as actual spirituality 02:29 is declined. 02:30 They don't go in tandem. 02:31 They are actually diverging. True. 02:35 And on one level, 02:36 you and I can't judge anyone else's heart, 02:38 we can only know our own, 02:39 but there's certain evidence as the Bible says, 02:41 by their fruit you shall know them. 02:43 And I think it's sort of abundantly obvious 02:46 that spirituality is the kind, 02:50 introspective, devotional, 02:53 prayerful, pietistic manner 02:55 that used to characterize what was known as spirituality. 02:59 That's not the thing of America nowadays. 03:03 What passes for spirituality is sort of the whoop 'em up. 03:06 And, you know, and pout at this type thing, 03:10 slay you in the aisles, 03:11 or you don't talk about the great prosperity 03:17 that's coming to you. 03:18 All of that's very extent in the United States, 03:20 but actual, godly living it's on the decline. 03:23 Yeah. 03:25 You know, what characterizes the United States 03:27 in most of the world, 03:28 but we lead the way in consumerism, 03:29 it's sort of self, you know, 03:31 self fulfillment pleasure and so on. 03:35 And the religious world is no different. 03:37 And so it's sort of curious as 03:39 what I would describe 03:40 as real spirituality has declined, 03:42 then this aspiration for spiritual control 03:46 or for religious control has increased. 03:48 And, you know, one thing that 03:50 I would add to kind of that picture, 03:51 Lincoln, is that, you know, as Christians, 03:56 we don't want to give the wrong idea or impression 03:59 that we would be against good moral norms that 04:04 some of, some parts of that 04:05 movement of the religious right. 04:08 What they propose, right? 04:11 There's things that in the movement itself, 04:13 that I was okay, most, any Christian could say, 04:15 yeah, there's good moral aspects to it. 04:17 The danger though, as you're pointing out is that 04:20 as the spirituality of the believers 04:22 in that movement go down, 04:24 they have more of in, 04:26 it's a converse growth of a desire to dominate 04:30 and control and force others to adopt those views. 04:33 So I think that the challenge 04:35 we run into is how to get moral norms 04:38 as Christians that we live by shared, 04:41 but through the power of the spirit rather than 04:42 the power of this thing. 04:44 I got the wording slightly wrong. 04:45 But doesn't Paul say 04:47 the Spirit of Christ constrains me? 04:48 Yeah. In Galatians Chapter 3. 04:50 Right. 04:52 And without the spirit, 04:54 religiosity or religious endeavors, 04:57 I think become toxic 04:59 because you're not constrained by charity, 05:02 which is one of the words the Bible 05:04 uses for godly love, you know the... 05:06 Peace and tolerance. Right. 05:08 So I don't think it's an accident, 05:10 and I think it needs to be commented on, 05:11 and it's not normally, it's... 05:14 There's a normal treating of the Christian thing 05:17 is just another political movement, 05:19 but Christianity and indeed any religion 05:22 without its underlying sensitivities 05:25 is very toxic. 05:27 And I've said it on this program, 05:28 and I'll say it as often as I can, 05:30 religion without spirituality 05:32 is one of the most dangerous forces in the world. 05:34 True. 05:35 It goes toxic very easily without that not restraining, 05:40 it tends to restrain, 05:41 but that fulfilling dynamic of the inner life, 05:44 that all basic religions cater to. 05:48 There's a great need in the human heart for, 05:51 more than a need. 05:52 We can't live without it. True. 05:53 You know, without the kinder, more spiritual, 05:58 the more existential aspect of existence you end up 06:01 as Ceausescu's Romania 06:04 where babies don't even grow beyond infantile state. 06:08 It destroys the human soul. 06:11 True. Very true. 06:12 And, you know, I think that coming back 06:14 more to point on your question, you know, 06:16 where does one see this going? 06:18 I know currently there is a commission actually, 06:21 it's in both the Senate 06:23 and the house where they're putting together 06:25 a commission to investigate 06:28 further the storming of the Capitol on January 6th 06:32 and taking time to find out, 06:34 not only investigate it, 06:36 draw their conclusions, 06:37 but also from the legal end is individuals 06:40 that were implicated and involved in it. 06:42 You know, they're going to face some kind of criminal charges. 06:45 So looking in the bigger perspective 06:48 several news outlets main stream 06:51 news media were recognizing 06:53 that type of movement on a parallel 06:55 to what you mentioned earlier 06:56 in this program about the Taliban. 06:59 You've got little groups 07:00 that become cells within America 07:03 that are devout and dedicated 07:05 to what they believe is the vision for this country. 07:08 And that is something 07:09 that will pose a definite challenge 07:11 to national security. 07:12 And, you know, revolutionary groups 07:14 have risen in the modern world quite often, 07:17 most of them not religious, 07:18 but they follow the same dynamic 07:20 where they're a religion or a social activist group. 07:23 As they get in those cells, 07:25 as they become more and more thwarted, 07:28 as they become more and more convinced 07:30 of the rightness of what they're doing, 07:32 they become crueler and crueler 07:35 and less and less worried 07:36 about the human cost of what they're doing. 07:39 Again, the Taliban, you know, with... 07:42 My daughter was watching a program the other day where, 07:45 you know, reenacting of the Taliban 07:46 were actually shot a little girl 07:48 because she could spell. 07:51 But you would think that in religion, 07:53 they're concerned about 07:54 the spiritual wellbeing of little girls 07:57 that it can become so diverted. 07:59 And I think even in the United States, 08:01 that might come, 08:03 but we need to make sure that that doesn't, right? 08:05 Yeah. 08:06 And discussing it, 08:07 I think clarifies it for many people, 08:09 hopefully a person with spiritual inclinations 08:12 wouldn't allow themselves to be hijacked 08:14 to a political power movement. 08:16 Hopefully people wouldn't think that it's all fulfilled 08:20 when they read their Old Testament, 08:21 particularly it's all fulfilled in this modern nation 08:24 of the United States. 08:26 It's God's kingdom, none of this world, right? 08:28 Amen. Yep. 08:29 But we need to encourage people. 08:31 Moving ahead, it's gonna be rocky going, 08:33 but we somehow need to steer clear 08:36 of these excesses, 08:37 keep spiritual fervor alive and allow religion to function, 08:41 but not pervert it into a political action group. 08:44 True. Very, very true. Yeah. 08:46 You know, I think that one of the key things that 08:48 we can take away from this is that 08:50 when we look at the New Testament especially, 08:53 we find in the Book of Romans Chapter 13, 08:57 where Paul goes in and talks about 08:59 the role of the Christian in relationship to the state 09:03 or whatever the authorities are that God has ordained 09:06 to govern in different countries 09:07 around the world. 09:09 And what we learn there, what Paul talks about is that 09:11 we should give respect to those authorities 09:14 as long as those authorities do not ask us to do 09:17 something against God's law or against our conscience. 09:20 So in that regard, 09:22 we should do our utmost to uphold 09:24 and respect the government that we're living under, 09:27 living as Christians propagating our faith, 09:29 living our faith. 09:31 And, of course, drawing a line 09:32 if our government asks us to go beyond what God's law, 09:35 moral law would expect of us. |
Revised 2021-07-01