Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guest Ed Cooke,
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we've been
getting into the weeds
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of what really grows
out of that January 6 image
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that people were transfixed by,
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but particularly I was taken
by the prayer session up front.
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And we've been talking about
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the theocratic
yearnings of the United States.
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And I think that's what it is
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because it goes back
to the very beginning,
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the Massachusetts Bay Colony,
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the Boston
experiments there with
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and Hutchinson who was expelled
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for having separate views.
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And it was a godly commonwealth
than anything but...
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Yep.
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So, you know, where do
you think this is leading?
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Well, you know, I do
know this, if we look at the,
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again, the
historical trajectory, right?
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So theologically speaking,
you've got the foundation
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from Puritan theology
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and dominionism
that kind of feed
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into that mindset of America
being God's chosen nation
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and also more
from the perspective
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of almost a Christian theocracy.
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But if you look back
from the roughly 60s onward,
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there has been a growing push
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from different religious groups.
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It started out as
the moral majority
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than the Christian coalition,
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and they gained
significant national positions
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in elected offices in 1992.
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And then by 1998,
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they had declined significantly,
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but they didn't organize
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and maintain their
organizational structure,
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but they started more
of a grass roots movement
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that from 1998 up to
the present has infiltrated
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in a lot of the
state electoral positions
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that from there filter
up into the national level.
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So, yeah, that's something
that they are still a movement
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that is on the horizon
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that has an
impact here in America.
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And, you know,
I've been watching this,
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it's during my
lifetime and your lifetime.
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And to me,
there's an interesting
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phenomenon going,
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this incipient
theocracy has always been a lure
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in the United States.
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It's pretty
much where we started
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and it's just
gotten more and more
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fixed in people's minds,
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I think, but it seems to
me it's increased in power
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and lure as actual spirituality
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is declined.
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They don't go in tandem.
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They are
actually diverging. True.
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And on one level,
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you and I can't
judge anyone else's heart,
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we can only know our own,
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but there's certain
evidence as the Bible says,
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by their fruit
you shall know them.
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And I think it's
sort of abundantly obvious
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that spirituality is the kind,
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introspective, devotional,
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prayerful, pietistic manner
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that used to characterize
what was known as spirituality.
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That's not the
thing of America nowadays.
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What passes for spirituality
is sort of the whoop 'em up.
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And, you know, and
pout at this type thing,
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slay you in the aisles,
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or you don't talk
about the great prosperity
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that's coming to you.
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All of that's very
extent in the United States,
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but actual, godly
living it's on the decline.
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Yeah.
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You know, what
characterizes the United States
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in most of the world,
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but we lead the
way in consumerism,
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it's sort of self, you know,
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self fulfillment
pleasure and so on.
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And the religious
world is no different.
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And so it's sort of curious as
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what I would describe
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as real
spirituality has declined,
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then this aspiration
for spiritual control
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or for religious
control has increased.
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And, you know, one thing that
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I would add to
kind of that picture,
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Lincoln, is that,
you know, as Christians,
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we don't want to give
the wrong idea or impression
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that we would be
against good moral norms that
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some of, some parts of that
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movement of the religious right.
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What they propose, right?
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There's things that
in the movement itself,
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that I was okay, most,
any Christian could say,
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yeah, there's good
moral aspects to it.
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The danger though, as
you're pointing out is that
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as the
spirituality of the believers
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in that movement go down,
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they have more of in,
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it's a converse growth
of a desire to dominate
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and control and force
others to adopt those views.
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So I think that the challenge
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we run into is
how to get moral norms
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as Christians
that we live by shared,
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but through the power
of the spirit rather than
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the power of this thing.
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I got the
wording slightly wrong.
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But doesn't Paul say
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the Spirit of
Christ constrains me?
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Yeah. In Galatians Chapter 3.
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Right.
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And without the spirit,
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religiosity or
religious endeavors,
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I think become toxic
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because you're not
constrained by charity,
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which is one of
the words the Bible
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uses for godly
love, you know the...
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Peace and tolerance. Right.
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So I don't think
it's an accident,
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and I think it
needs to be commented on,
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and it's not normally, it's...
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There's a normal
treating of the Christian thing
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is just another
political movement,
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but Christianity
and indeed any religion
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without its
underlying sensitivities
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is very toxic.
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And I've said
it on this program,
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and I'll say it
as often as I can,
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religion without spirituality
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is one of the most
dangerous forces in the world.
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True.
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It goes toxic very easily
without that not restraining,
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it tends to restrain,
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but that fulfilling
dynamic of the inner life,
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that all basic
religions cater to.
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There's a great need
in the human heart for,
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more than a need.
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We can't live without it. True.
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You know, without the
kinder, more spiritual,
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the more existential
aspect of existence you end up
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as Ceausescu's Romania
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where babies don't even
grow beyond infantile state.
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It destroys the human soul.
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True. Very true.
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And, you know, I
think that coming back
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more to point on
your question, you know,
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where does one see this going?
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I know currently there
is a commission actually,
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it's in both the Senate
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and the house where
they're putting together
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a commission to investigate
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further the storming of
the Capitol on January 6th
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and taking time to find out,
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not only investigate it,
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draw their conclusions,
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but also from the
legal end is individuals
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that were
implicated and involved in it.
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You know, they're going to face
some kind of criminal charges.
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So looking in the
bigger perspective
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several news outlets main stream
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news media were recognizing
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that type of
movement on a parallel
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to what you mentioned earlier
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in this program
about the Taliban.
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You've got little groups
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that become cells within America
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that are devout and dedicated
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to what they believe is
the vision for this country.
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And that is something
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that will pose a
definite challenge
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to national security.
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And, you know,
revolutionary groups
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have risen in the
modern world quite often,
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most of them not religious,
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but they follow the same dynamic
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where they're a religion
or a social activist group.
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As they get in those cells,
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as they become
more and more thwarted,
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as they become
more and more convinced
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of the rightness
of what they're doing,
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they become crueler and crueler
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and less and less worried
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about the human cost
of what they're doing.
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Again, the
Taliban, you know, with...
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My daughter was watching a
program the other day where,
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you know,
reenacting of the Taliban
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were actually shot a little girl
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because she could spell.
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But you would
think that in religion,
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they're concerned about
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the spiritual
wellbeing of little girls
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that it can become so diverted.
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And I think even
in the United States,
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that might come,
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but we need to make sure
that that doesn't, right?
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Yeah.
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And discussing it,
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I think clarifies
it for many people,
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hopefully a person
with spiritual inclinations
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wouldn't allow
themselves to be hijacked
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to a political power movement.
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Hopefully people wouldn't
think that it's all fulfilled
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when they read
their Old Testament,
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particularly it's all
fulfilled in this modern nation
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of the United States.
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It's God's kingdom,
none of this world, right?
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Amen. Yep.
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But we need to encourage people.
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Moving ahead, it's
gonna be rocky going,
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but we somehow
need to steer clear
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of these excesses,
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keep spiritual fervor alive
and allow religion to function,
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but not pervert it into
a political action group.
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True. Very, very true. Yeah.
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You know, I think that
one of the key things that
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we can take away
from this is that
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when we look at the
New Testament especially,
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we find in the Book
of Romans Chapter 13,
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where Paul goes
in and talks about
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the role of the Christian
in relationship to the state
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or whatever the authorities
are that God has ordained
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to govern in different countries
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around the world.
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And what we learn there,
what Paul talks about is that
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we should give
respect to those authorities
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as long as those
authorities do not ask us to do
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something against God's
law or against our conscience.
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So in that regard,
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we should do
our utmost to uphold
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and respect the government
that we're living under,
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living as Christians
propagating our faith,
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living our faith.
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And, of course, drawing a line
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if our government asks us
to go beyond what God's law,
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moral law would expect of us.
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