Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI210497A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:29 I'm your host Lincoln Steed, until recently after 22 years, 00:34 editor of Liberty magazine, and my guest is Ed Cooke. 00:38 He's a researcher or writer 00:40 or a minister of religion based in Texas. 00:43 And you have a doctorate in Church-State Studies 00:46 from Baylor University? 00:47 That's correct. 00:48 So that's a pretty good sheepskin 00:50 to be on this program. 00:52 Thank you. 00:53 But let's talk about some current events. 00:55 Sure. Or pretty current. 00:57 It's not too long as we record this 00:59 since Washington was transfixed by an event 01:04 just before the inauguration where an unruly mob, 01:08 really not that unruly, many of them had an idea. 01:10 They were pre-trained 01:13 and planned to get up to nonsense, 01:15 perhaps take hostages, perhaps worse. 01:17 And they stormed into the chamber there, 01:21 the temple of Liberty I think as Nancy Pelosi called it. 01:24 Yep. 01:25 And almost brought down our government 01:28 and almost stopped the process of government. 01:33 What are your thoughts on that? 01:35 Because, you know, I saw that, it's like 9/11, 01:38 but what did I see? 01:40 It was something so jarring with reality 01:42 and our concept of freedom 01:44 and the orderly process of governance 01:47 that I could hardly get my head around it. 01:50 Well, you know, from my perspective, 01:52 I was shocked. 01:53 I mean, just outright, as soon as I read in the news, 01:57 what was happening 01:58 and not only the aspect of challenging 02:01 the democratic process 02:03 of a duly elected incumbent, right? 02:05 Coming in, President Biden, 02:07 but also the aspect 02:09 of the impact that it had on the nation's capital, 02:13 shutting down a lot of the traffic in and out 02:16 around that area. 02:18 The inciting of a protest, police forces involved. 02:22 I believe I even read in an article in the news 02:25 about the FBI, you know, having gotten involved 02:28 and had sent out 02:29 some kind of a pre-warning preemptive notice 02:33 to the local police forces, 02:35 I think at least a day before. 02:37 And I don't know whether they kind of dismissed it 02:39 or played it down, 02:40 but nonetheless as obvious they weren't prepared. 02:43 Yeah. It wasn't business as usual. 02:44 But let me tell you what really got me on that day. 02:48 The whole scenario was shocking 02:50 and I've lived longer than I ever thought I would, 02:53 but a lot of this type of behavior 02:57 hacks me back in my mind too, 02:59 the Watergate experience 03:01 that's where Washington was rocking on his foundations, 03:03 but things were a little different this time. 03:05 And I could summarize it by what happened. 03:08 I think it was a little later we saw the footage 03:09 inside the chamber, 03:11 a bunch of these rowdies 03:12 perhaps to use a more of an Australian term 03:15 gathered around near the speaker's podium. 03:17 And they had a little prayer service. 03:19 Yeah. Yes. You remember that? 03:21 And they brought, invoked God's blessing on their endeavor 03:24 and the freedom and all the rest, 03:26 used a lot of the same language 03:29 that we're used to reading in the history books as this, 03:32 you know, this godly nation 03:33 establishing God's rule, which is not true. 03:36 I mean, it's not ever been structurally true, 03:38 but it's been easy in normal history to invoke God 03:41 and His blessing on national endeavors. 03:44 But here, these were, you can say they were rioters, 03:48 but I think it was a little more calculated. 03:50 These were people with an agenda to overthrow 03:52 what they saw as a corrupt government 03:54 and here installed a godly vision 03:57 at the center of power. 03:58 In fact, wasn't there one individual 04:00 that was there he called himself the Shaman, Q Shaman? 04:02 Yeah. 04:04 He wasn't one of the ones praying though, 04:05 but yes, to me that was sort of a pagan intrusion, 04:10 but this was an attempt to almost a prayer. 04:13 Well, it was a prayer service there, 04:15 asking God's blessing for what they were doing. 04:18 Now, Abraham Lincoln, remember what he said, 04:20 remember his statement about the civil war? 04:22 I do read, there are several I say. 04:24 You know, both sides prayed to God in this matter. 04:26 He couldn't answer both their prayers. 04:29 So, you know, people easily invoke God 04:32 either the Old Testament or, you know, foreign gods. 04:36 Gods are invoked in times of stress. 04:39 That's not unusual. 04:40 But in a country 04:42 with a generally Christian population, 04:44 that was quite jarring, 04:46 I think to see it invoked on the side of revolution. 04:49 So there it would seem almost seemed like it was implying 04:52 or at least giving the impression, right? 04:55 That a group of Christians 04:57 were trying to overthrow their own government. 04:59 That's the... 05:01 And I think that's how they saw it. 05:03 And, of course, from the Bible, 05:06 I don't find any warrant for such behavior, do you? 05:09 No. Certainly not. 05:11 I mean, if you're inclined to get a false analogy 05:14 between theocracy or, 05:17 and the story of the Jews in the Old Testament, 05:19 you could maybe get there, 05:20 but not in the New Testament. 05:22 Correct. 05:23 You know, what are some of the statements 05:24 that Jesus made about His kingdom? 05:26 Yeah. He said, "My kingdom is not of this world." 05:29 Right. "If it were, He says, 05:30 My followers would fight for Me." 05:31 Correct. But it's not and they didn't. 05:33 And He even referred to being able, 05:35 I mean, if He recognized that He needed to fight, right? 05:39 That He could have called the legion of angels 05:41 to help to assist Him, but He didn't do that. 05:43 Yeah. 05:45 But one thing I did want to just touch on 05:46 maybe as a point of clarification 05:49 from a theological perspective. 05:51 In the Old Testament, 05:52 we do have an established theocracy. 05:55 God actually, you know, 05:56 and you're well acquainted with this, 05:57 you know, just kind of filling in maybe or sharing 06:00 a few perspectives here. 06:01 But in the Old Testament, 06:03 God was the original one who led Israel through Moses 06:06 out from Egypt and led them to the Promised Land. 06:09 And then through that, 06:11 the establishing them there set up a system of judges. 06:13 And then after that, you had the monarchical rule 06:16 until the nation was in essence divided 06:19 between the north and south. 06:21 So that was an established theocracy where... 06:24 No, all of it, the theocracy, 06:27 the first part of the three that you outlined, 06:29 that was God ruling directly. 06:31 Correct. 06:32 The Shekinah Glory, the literal presence of God, 06:36 or the angel of the Lord, as it says in the Bible, 06:39 the God, Ancient of Days, 06:40 but God in a visible way had manifested Himself. 06:43 Correct. 06:45 And He would speak to the high priest. 06:47 He would speak through Moses to Moses. 06:49 So there was no... 06:51 And even I would add that, you know, there were times 06:53 when He was leading the people of Israel 06:55 at night as a pillar of fire... 06:57 Yes, the Shekinah Glory. Leading them. 06:59 Was in the temple during the day. 07:01 And at night as they moved, 07:02 it was the pillar of the cloud or pillar. 07:04 We always, so well, one would look at look at that 07:06 as being a literal theocracy, right during that time? 07:08 So there's no analogy for that today. 07:13 No analogy today. 07:14 I mean, who can perceive God, 07:17 He's in the still small voice, right? 07:19 Yep. Yeah, yeah. 07:21 I would say that's something as Christians that 07:23 you know, we need to be aware of 07:25 obviously the Holy Spirit speaking to us, 07:27 but looking at that historical aspect 07:29 for just a moment. 07:31 So we've got the, the pure theocracy 07:33 where God actually was directly speaking through Moses 07:36 and leading the people, right? 07:38 Then we had God establishing them 07:39 in the Promised Land 07:41 and a period of rule through judges 07:43 and then eventually a monarchical rule 07:45 being set up. 07:47 But God, God still spoke 07:48 to try to guide the nation through prophets, 07:51 right at that time. 07:52 Yeah, but... 07:55 Be careful, the people in the pews understand this, 07:59 our wider audience may not. 08:01 And when we're making a comparison or an illusion 08:06 to a Bible model versus 08:08 what we started talking about in Washington 08:10 that can be dangerous. 08:12 A pure theocracy it's God direct, 08:14 that doesn't exist now. 08:16 So that's not even a good model to invoke. 08:18 The times of the judges, 08:21 what does it say about those times in the Bible? 08:23 That each one did their own thing. 08:25 Right. 08:27 Everyone did what was right in their own sight. 08:29 So you can't make a good argument, 08:30 even with some of them who are godly. 08:32 Others were quite bloodthirsty, Jehu and so on. 08:36 What they really were, were tribal leaders 08:39 and strong men that God used, 08:42 but not always as God would have wished, like Samson, 08:47 not really a good example. 08:48 So that's part of the story of God's people stumbling 08:54 and a lot of stumbling toward recognizing Him 08:58 and living under His rule. 08:59 But the theocracy is the clearest, 09:02 but we don't have step model. 09:03 We don't want to get under the period of the judges now. 09:06 Correct. 09:07 But the best parallel to that I think is 09:10 the Taliban in Afghanistan, not good. 09:14 So let me just add this 09:15 to throw this in as a brief little 09:17 maybe kind of a capsule of clarification, 09:20 Lincoln, on that. 09:21 So I'm in 100% agreement with you 09:23 regarding the Old Testament history of God 09:26 leading His people, right? 09:27 I started alluding to that in the beginning though, 09:29 to make the distinction 09:31 between the Old and the New Testament. 09:32 In the Old Testament, 09:34 that was in a theocracy in the... 09:36 pure theocracy in the beginning, 09:37 monarchical eventually 09:39 where God still spoke to them through prophets 09:41 and manifested Himself as well on behalf of them. 09:44 But in the New Testament, we have a transition 09:46 to what we refer to as the people of God 09:49 and the people of the faith of Abraham, 09:51 as Christians in other words. 09:52 We don't see the exact structure, i.e. 09:55 there's manifest differences 09:58 between Old Testament and New Testament, 10:01 literal Israelites that were descendants 10:03 by blood of Abraham 10:04 in the New Testament is by faith in Jesus. 10:06 So it's a principle, not a people. 10:08 Correct. And so we... 10:09 Not by inheritance, 10:11 as Jesus has said to the Jews in His day, 10:13 that sort of invoked their ancestry. 10:15 He says, He could raise up children of Abraham 10:17 for the stones if necessary. 10:20 So it's not your birthright, it's your faithfulness. 10:23 Yes. 10:25 But back to what we were talking about, 10:27 this easy invocation of the United States 10:30 as a Christian nation, 10:32 which is only demographically true, 10:34 not structurally true. 10:37 That easy invocation lends itself 10:39 to this abhorrence scene there in the capital in my view. 10:43 And we need to just sweep that away, 10:46 that easy comparison to the theocracy wrong. 10:50 It might be a comparison to the time of judges, 10:53 but that's the time of violence in the name of God, 10:57 not always even close to what God wanted, 11:00 and then the kings, 11:01 that's the worst time in Israel. 11:03 Remember God said to Samuel, you know, 11:07 "They've rejected Me by wanting a king." 11:10 And he says, if you read the Old Testament description 11:12 or the king will do, 11:14 he will take the young men, send them off to war, 11:16 or you know, it goes on and on, tax you and do this. 11:19 In other words, he will subvert what I, 11:23 the authority I have over you, 11:25 and he will use it to his own ends. 11:26 Yeah. 11:27 So, I think for maybe I could put it this way, 11:31 individuals that are maybe a part of the viewing audience 11:34 that would uphold or support 11:38 what happened in that Capitol attempt right to, 11:42 the coup, whatever they call it, 11:43 storming the capital. 11:46 The argument that I would make though, 11:47 is that biblically there's really no basis for it, 11:50 because again, yes, 11:52 the Old Testament speaks of a theocracy, 11:54 but in the New Testament, 11:55 if these Christians that stormed the Capitol, 11:58 then were praying there in the hall of democracy, 12:01 the temple of democracy as Nancy Pelosi stated 12:05 if they would see that in the New Testament 12:06 as Christians, we don't have a theocratic model 12:10 and in the New Testament 12:11 as there was in the Old Testament. 12:13 So in that regard, there's no biblical foundation, 12:17 no New Testament foundation 12:19 for that kind of viewpoint or those kinds of action. 12:20 And what you're hinting at. 12:22 And this is what I want to bring out in a discussion. 12:24 We are not given a theocratic model, 12:27 but that has been the story of Christianity. 12:30 I mean, even Columbus planting the flag, 12:34 and then beginning to exterminate 12:37 the non-believing Indians, 12:40 that's the model of conquest. 12:44 And without God's command, 12:45 that's what the Israelites would have to do 12:47 with the corrupt tribes of Canaan. 12:50 But it's so misbegotten, 12:52 but we're at the rump end or the stump end 12:57 of that sort of thinking, 12:58 even in the United States today. 13:00 A Christian nation 13:01 is to be in a New Testament model, 13:04 bringing light and understanding 13:07 and illumination and the Spirit of God 13:09 into the hearts of all mankind, 13:11 not, you know, as the crusades were with the sword and, 13:14 you know, acknowledged God or else. 13:16 Yes. 13:17 But that lingers in human thinking, 13:19 and I don't even think it's unique to a unique 13:24 obstacle to Christian behavior. 13:26 It's the domination of, the need to dominate 13:30 that comes natural to a human heart I think. 13:34 I've got something you don't have it, 13:36 or I don't want you to have it, you know, watch out. 13:38 Or perhaps even you have something that I want 13:41 and I'll take it, right? 13:42 And, you know, maybe the best example 13:44 that comes to mind, 13:46 I've mentioned it on this program before, 13:47 but I heard Cardinal Dolan 13:51 talking to a Catholic audience once 13:52 and he gave a wonderful talk on religious liberty, 13:55 and something was bothering him 13:57 in thinking about his own church. 13:59 And he stopped and to a Catholic audience, 14:01 he said, you know, 14:03 he said once we would not speak this way 14:06 about religious liberty, 14:08 we held that error has no rights. 14:12 And that's the absolute us versus them. 14:15 We have the truth, we have God. 14:17 You don't have Him, therefore you have no rights, 14:20 no place in this earth. 14:22 And in an extreme case, maybe you were to be removed. 14:25 Well, you were mentioning a point 14:27 that actually, it's a very interesting, 14:29 there are some historians, 14:30 church historians and theologians 14:33 that have recognized 14:35 that tracing all the way back to early Christianity. 14:40 There was an idea, 14:43 you might say a misconception theologically 14:45 that carried over from that. 14:47 And down through the centuries, 14:49 that was transferred from Catholicism 14:51 to the Protestant groups, 14:53 your majority Protestant groups. 14:54 And from there brought to America 14:56 with the idea of kind of a theocratic model 14:59 that does not exist in the New Testament. 15:01 You are right. That's where we got it. 15:02 Let's take a short break. Stay with us. 15:04 We'll be back shortly to continue this discussion. |
Revised 2021-07-01