Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI200496A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is a program designed to bring you up 00:30 to speed and catch your interest 00:32 on religious liberty developments 00:34 in the US and around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine. 00:40 And my guest on the program, 00:41 my friend and aspiring partner 00:43 of some other programs Clifford Goldstein. 00:46 Once 22 years ago, editor of Liberty, 00:49 and since then you've been editor 00:51 of the Sabbath School Study Quarterlies 00:53 for the world church 00:54 of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 00:57 But a man never short of an opinion, right? 01:01 You pushed my buttons. 01:02 Yeah, let's push your global button. 01:05 Uh. All right. 01:06 You know, since COVID 01:07 the US has been very self-absorbed 01:10 and, you know, we've all been at home 01:12 watching TV, studying, 01:14 and hardly showing our noses in the clear air, 01:16 which would immunize this to some degree. 01:18 Haven't stopped me from going out. 01:20 I'm talking figuratively. 01:21 Yeah, I go out everywhere, I do whatever I want to do. 01:23 But I wear a mask. 01:25 I do if they ask me. 01:27 Well, let me ask you. 01:28 I'm a super spreader. 01:30 Well, I hope not. 01:31 Lots of people would accuse me of. 01:33 But, what's interesting is that, 01:38 while COVID has been a worldwide problem, 01:41 some worse than some countries. 01:43 US is about as bad as it comes, 01:45 but one, I was telling you, 01:46 I think earlier Vietnam as of a few weeks ago, 01:50 I think they had none, no deaths. 01:52 Really? 01:53 So it's not equally, but it's preoccupied. 01:56 But what we've discovered is that under cover 01:58 of the COVID emergency, 02:00 some countries have actually tightened down 02:03 their restrictions of religious liberty. 02:04 Of course. 02:05 I mean, it's, you have a potential disaster. 02:10 And then people are going to look 02:11 to the government and yeah, 02:13 I haven't followed it that closely, 02:15 but it would certainly fit 02:17 which certainly opened the way for people to do that. 02:20 That's historically, that's always happened. 02:21 Yes, exactly. Tragedy and worst. 02:24 We'll put it another way, 02:25 and this is why I'm bringing it up. 02:28 We mustn't forget about the ongoing problems 02:32 in some of these countries that, 02:34 that are religious conflict and challenge in an area, 02:37 it's not going to disappear 02:38 just because another emergency comes along. 02:39 How unfortunately. 02:41 And China has a huge problem with two interesting groups. 02:45 The Uyghurs 02:48 who are not really ethnically Chinese 02:50 and as a group are almost totally Islamic 02:54 have bothered China, 02:56 not that they've really attacked 02:58 China or anything, 02:59 but they don't fit 03:00 and they want to squeeze them 03:02 into the ideological mold of communism 03:04 and the cultural mold of a Chinese culture. 03:07 So they'd been persecuted quite severely, 03:09 I think a million of them being rounded up 03:10 in re-education camps. 03:12 So that's continued unabated. 03:15 And then the... 03:16 And I'll get your opinion on this 03:18 because I know you've dealt with this, 03:19 the Falun Gong phenomenon. 03:22 You must have dealt with that 03:24 'cause it's been around forever. 03:25 Well, I just know that they're just a religious group 03:27 that has faced an intense amount 03:29 of persecution in China. 03:31 And I know that they've, they get some publicity, 03:36 but I'm not sure a whole lot has been done. 03:39 You know, there was this whole idea, 03:41 the Chinese economic miracle and China, 03:44 you know, it's communist to name, 03:46 that is about as capitalistic society. 03:49 Yes, but it's a very controlling system. 03:50 Yeah, but there's still the markets that run, 03:53 you know, and I remember we, there was all this talk, 03:59 well, China's opening up 04:00 and the more they get economic power, 04:03 the more, you know, free them will become and so on. 04:06 And I think Tiananmen Square 04:10 pretty much disabused us of that. 04:13 So just economic growth and this and that, 04:17 because I think the Chinese have basically made a pact, 04:22 an unspoken pact with a lot of their people. 04:26 Don't get into politics 04:28 and we'll leave you alone to make your money. 04:31 Will improve your life. 04:33 Yeah, you can make your money and improve, 04:34 you get out two cars, 04:36 you know, and there's a lot of wealth 04:37 in China. 04:38 Yes. 04:40 And so probably because at the same time too, 04:42 we think we've got divisions. 04:44 You've got a massive amount of very poor people 04:49 in China as well who miss, 04:51 economic boom hasn't effected yet. 04:54 I think they have about to 1.2 billion. 04:56 It's a massive population. 04:58 You got 400 million poor people, 05:02 you know, in boiling over, it's... 05:05 I have a feeling China's going to have 05:07 some troubling days ahead. 05:09 Very likely. Yes. Yeah. 05:11 And in some ways, just as with the Soviet Union, 05:14 I think natural cause of events 05:16 will tend to break down this ideological monolith 05:19 that we were in the past at least so afraid of. 05:21 Yeah. 05:23 Well, again, to the COVID, it's hard to know 05:25 what's actually going on there with COVID, 05:27 but apparently that's where it started everything. 05:30 It started over there from what the news says. 05:33 Well, they seem to have it under control, 05:34 but we'll never know, you're right. 05:36 But the Falun Gong, 05:37 I need to maybe spell it out a bit more. 05:39 Yes, spell it out a little more. 05:41 What it was as Falun Gong were exercise. 05:44 It was basically a fitness regime 05:47 that derived from I think Daoism 05:51 and Chinese spiritual exercises 05:57 for one of better word, 05:58 but it was passed off just like yoga is in the West 06:00 is really just a group exercise. 06:04 And the Chinese government reaction 06:06 was very interesting 06:08 because I don't think 06:09 they particularly saw it as religion. 06:10 What they saw it in was an organized group 06:13 that could rise up against them. 06:15 They didn't like the fact that a lot of people 06:17 were gathering together 06:18 and not talking about communism. 06:20 So very quickly, they tried to squash it out. 06:23 And I think it's just the spirit 06:25 of independence rather than a, 06:27 than any particular views of Falun Gong 06:31 that they've resisted. 06:32 And so huge numbers of them were regularly imprisoned, 06:36 and persecuted, and intersects with what... 06:41 The evidence is spotty, 06:42 but it seems pretty overwhelming though, 06:44 that there's some sort of organ trading from China 06:48 of executed prisoners and so on. 06:50 So the whole thing is just very troubling 06:54 from the point of view of torture civil liberties 06:57 and behind it all persecution, 07:00 in this case calling it religious persecution, 07:03 even though they're not 07:04 just like you mentioned 07:06 Scientologists in another program, 07:07 you know, you can debate whether they're a religion, 07:10 but if they're treated as a religion, 07:13 then you have to interject and say, 07:15 this is religious persecution. 07:16 Sure. Yeah. Yeah. 07:18 Well, I said 07:19 I haven't followed it that much, 07:21 but I do know when this kind of authoritarian regimes, 07:25 they demand absolute loyalty. 07:28 And if you give it to God 07:30 or to your exercise class or something, 07:33 they do get a little scary, scared with it. 07:36 But let's get, let's really get biblical for a second. 07:38 Okay. 07:41 What you just said is true. 07:42 So how does that relate to say 07:44 Daniel living in the court of King Nebuchadnezzar 07:49 and others in the Old Testament, 07:51 under the Babylonian exile? 07:53 They were dealing with total despots. 07:55 You look cross-eyed at the guy, they have your head, 07:58 and yet some have faith continued practice 08:00 of religion. 08:02 So is it necessary a prerequisite 08:04 for religious liberty to do away with despotism? 08:08 Well, I guess it depends on the despot, 08:10 if the despot leaves you alone, 08:12 you know, but I've often thought 08:14 about that suppose... 08:16 Well, that's... 08:17 I'm glad you're now risen to the bait, 08:19 but we seldom talk about it. 08:21 We go on the premise 08:22 that religious liberty goes hand in hand 08:24 with democracy. 08:25 It's the best relationship, 08:28 but if you're following conscience, 08:29 it must be possible 08:31 without, 'cause there's no call 08:32 that I see in the Christian 08:34 or any other honest person of faith 08:37 to overthrow a government, 08:38 just because it objects to your faith 08:40 in some level or there's a contradiction. 08:42 Well, I thought about, you know, you mentioned Daniel, 08:45 suppose your country was overrun by a foreign power 08:52 and they burn your cities 08:53 and they took your people captive 08:55 and they raged your temple. 08:58 This is what happened with it. 08:59 Yeah, and then you're taken to there 09:02 and you suddenly become a favorite in the court. 09:05 You've suddenly become a favorite. 09:08 And you're... Quisling. 09:09 Yeah, yeah, exactly. 09:10 You wonder, would not Daniel have been deemed 09:13 a traitor by his own people? 09:15 It's an interesting point. 09:17 And then yet in the end, 09:18 you know, the Book of Daniel 09:20 is one of the revered books it's in the Bible 09:23 and yet here he was, and... 09:26 Well, I can think of one where that must've been so, 09:29 Esther and Mordechai. 09:31 Yeah. Well, yes... 09:32 Mordechai clearly would have seen 09:34 as a bit of a co-opted Jew. 09:39 He was so close at hand, 09:41 you know, why did he need to work 09:43 in the king's palace? 09:44 Well, whatever it was he turned out, 09:46 that turned out to help the people. 09:47 Well, yeah, that's my point. 09:50 You could make a case that, that he was in a, 09:52 not a compromise, but an unfortunate situation, 09:55 but it was to the benefit of the practice of religion. 09:59 But I've often wondered that about Daniel, 10:01 how we would have, 10:03 you know, we often look in this paragon of virtue 10:06 and I don't question it, 10:07 but suppose it was 10:09 that I'm not helping you at all. 10:10 You know, they brought him in the kingdom, you burned, 10:13 they might have murdered his parents. 10:14 Well, you know, the Psalm about the rivers. 10:17 I mean, that's the song by the rivers of Babylon, 10:19 there we sat down. 10:20 What number Psalm is that? 10:21 I don't remember. They asked us to sing a song. 10:24 How could we sing? 10:25 Blessed is he that dashes 10:27 your little ones against the rocks, remember? 10:28 Yeah, when Zion is in ruins. 10:30 That was the attitude as they went into captivity. 10:32 Yeah, and yet here are these guys loyal, 10:36 faithful in the kingdom working for, 10:39 you know, and for the king and set over them. 10:43 And I don't know, I've learned a lot of things in the Bible. 10:46 There's whole cultures and things 10:48 that are just totally alien 10:51 to our way of looking at the world. 10:53 And I just take it on faith, even what I don't understand. 10:57 Well, let me make it more contemporary 10:59 and this is not even theoretical. 11:02 You're a Seventh-day Adventist in Baghdad 11:06 under Saddam Hussein. 11:07 He treated the Adventist very nicely. 11:09 I know, this is said. 11:10 He treated the Adventist, they all had... 11:12 He treated most Christians pretty nicely. 11:14 Yeah, they were not favorites. 11:16 I better not set us up for trouble, 11:18 but he wasn't directly persecuting them. 11:21 In fact, Saddam Hussein in spite of his PR 11:26 if it's toward the end of his regime 11:28 was not really in favor of Islamic fundamentalism. 11:30 He wasn't. 11:31 He was at war with the fundamentals 11:34 and they had a separation of church and state 11:37 to support him. 11:39 He just didn't want religious people meddling. 11:41 So he treated the different religious groups, 11:44 including Christians about the same. 11:46 Yeah. 11:47 And then they, we overthrow Saddam Hussein 11:49 to bring freedom to the Iraqis 11:52 and before long all the Christians 11:55 had to flee for their lives. 11:57 He, I've been... 11:59 That's what I'm saying, unintended conspiracy. 12:00 I'm not a defender of Saddam Hussein in any way, 12:05 shape or form, 12:06 but he did keep a lid on the country. 12:09 He did keep a lid on those religious groups. 12:14 A person of faith 12:16 in a, in an aberrant 12:17 or less than ideal political situation. 12:20 If their faith is not restricted, 12:23 what is their obligation beyond living for their faith? 12:26 Well, I don't know. 12:27 You know, they, what did Peter say, 12:30 "Honor the emperor?" 12:31 Well, that was... And who was the emperor? 12:34 Nero. It's a good point. 12:35 Nero, so, I mean, you don't find in the Bible, 12:42 you don't see in the example, 12:43 Jesus lived at a time of a corrupt... 12:46 Christians are not called... This is my view. 12:48 I'll say it this way, Christians are not called 12:50 to be social revolutionaries. 12:54 We are called to challenge the social norms. 12:57 If it's persecuting the poor or whatever, 13:00 but we're not to challenge the authority system 13:03 because God's eternal kingdom is at stake. 13:05 Well, yeah, but then what about 13:07 Bonhoeffer planning to try to kill him? 13:09 I don't like that story. 13:11 You know, yeah. Well... 13:13 I don't, he was a spy for the Germans at one point. 13:17 He was playing in the game 13:19 that Christian shouldn't have been, 13:21 and yes, who knows his motives, I don't know. 13:24 But he got eaten up by the system 13:25 that he was dabbling with. 13:27 But I mean, in the end we've had this, 13:29 I've had this discussion. 13:31 It would be wrong for the German... 13:34 We criticize today up and down the German Christian Church. 13:40 Why did the German church acquiesce? 13:42 Why did they acquiesce? 13:44 We criticize them so much for doing that. 13:49 They didn't acquiesce. They swore open field. 13:51 Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. 13:53 And, but, well, they're just, they weren't fighting. 13:57 This was God's put government. 13:58 We've come through a bitter political time. 14:00 And, you know, without throwing my towel in 14:03 as to which side or which president or whatever, 14:05 that's sort of immaterial, 14:06 but people should think long and hard that the Nazis, 14:09 when they came to power, I've seen the quotes. 14:11 Hitler said, 14:13 "National socialism is based on Christianity." 14:15 Of course. Said all the right things. 14:18 So you know, it isn't those sort of 14:21 public statements don't throw your lot in 14:23 with any erstwhile Hitler 14:26 or even a jumped up sort of any tin pot dictator, 14:32 just because they speak well of your faith. 14:34 If they truly are walking the walk 14:38 and are kind toward people of faith. 14:40 And, of course, Hitler sent Catholics 14:44 and others to execution. 14:46 I've read the story that individual Roman Catholics 14:50 were refusing to go 14:55 into military service at the time 14:57 when Rome had struck a concordant with. 15:01 And they would cite 15:02 that the judges would cite that to the Catholics, 15:05 but they still executed them. 15:06 Wow. 15:08 We'll take a break and be back shortly. 15:10 Interesting discussion. |
Revised 2021-03-22