Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
designed to bring you up
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to speed and catch your interest
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on religious
liberty developments
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine.
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And my guest on the program,
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my friend and aspiring partner
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of some other
programs Clifford Goldstein.
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Once 22 years
ago, editor of Liberty,
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and since then
you've been editor
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of the Sabbath
School Study Quarterlies
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for the world church
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of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
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But a man never
short of an opinion, right?
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You pushed my buttons.
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Yeah, let's push
your global button.
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Uh. All right.
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You know, since COVID
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the US has been
very self-absorbed
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and, you know,
we've all been at home
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watching TV, studying,
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and hardly showing our
noses in the clear air,
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which would
immunize this to some degree.
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Haven't stopped
me from going out.
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I'm talking figuratively.
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Yeah, I go out everywhere,
I do whatever I want to do.
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But I wear a mask.
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I do if they ask me.
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Well, let me ask you.
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I'm a super spreader.
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Well, I hope not.
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Lots of people
would accuse me of.
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But, what's interesting is that,
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while COVID has
been a worldwide problem,
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some worse than some countries.
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US is about as bad as it comes,
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but one, I was telling you,
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I think earlier
Vietnam as of a few weeks ago,
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I think they
had none, no deaths.
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Really?
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So it's not equally,
but it's preoccupied.
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But what we've
discovered is that under cover
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of the COVID emergency,
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some countries have
actually tightened down
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their restrictions
of religious liberty.
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Of course.
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I mean, it's, you
have a potential disaster.
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And then people
are going to look
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to the government and yeah,
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I haven't
followed it that closely,
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but it would certainly fit
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which certainly opened
the way for people to do that.
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That's historically,
that's always happened.
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Yes, exactly. Tragedy and worst.
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We'll put it another way,
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and this is why
I'm bringing it up.
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We mustn't forget
about the ongoing problems
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in some of these countries that,
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that are religious conflict
and challenge in an area,
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it's not going to disappear
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just because another
emergency comes along.
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How unfortunately.
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And China has a huge problem
with two interesting groups.
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The Uyghurs
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who are not
really ethnically Chinese
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and as a group are
almost totally Islamic
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have bothered China,
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not that they've really attacked
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China or anything,
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but they don't fit
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and they want to squeeze them
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into the
ideological mold of communism
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and the cultural
mold of a Chinese culture.
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So they'd been
persecuted quite severely,
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I think a million of
them being rounded up
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in re-education camps.
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So that's continued unabated.
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And then the...
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And I'll get
your opinion on this
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because I know
you've dealt with this,
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the Falun Gong phenomenon.
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You must have dealt with that
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'cause it's been around forever.
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Well, I just know that
they're just a religious group
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that has faced an intense amount
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of persecution in China.
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And I know that they've,
they get some publicity,
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but I'm not sure a
whole lot has been done.
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You know, there
was this whole idea,
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the Chinese
economic miracle and China,
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you know, it's
communist to name,
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that is about as
capitalistic society.
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Yes, but it's a
very controlling system.
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Yeah, but there's
still the markets that run,
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you know, and I remember
we, there was all this talk,
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well, China's opening up
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and the more they
get economic power,
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the more, you know, free
them will become and so on.
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And I think Tiananmen Square
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pretty much
disabused us of that.
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So just economic
growth and this and that,
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because I think the Chinese
have basically made a pact,
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an unspoken pact with
a lot of their people.
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Don't get into politics
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and we'll leave you
alone to make your money.
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Will improve your life.
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Yeah, you can make
your money and improve,
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you get out two cars,
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you know, and
there's a lot of wealth
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in China.
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Yes.
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And so probably
because at the same time too,
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we think we've got divisions.
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You've got a massive
amount of very poor people
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in China as well who miss,
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economic boom
hasn't effected yet.
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I think they have
about to 1.2 billion.
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It's a massive population.
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You got 400 million poor people,
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you know, in
boiling over, it's...
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I have a feeling
China's going to have
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some troubling days ahead.
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Very likely. Yes. Yeah.
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And in some ways, just
as with the Soviet Union,
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I think natural cause of events
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will tend to break down
this ideological monolith
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that we were in the
past at least so afraid of.
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Yeah.
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Well, again, to the
COVID, it's hard to know
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what's actually
going on there with COVID,
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but apparently that's
where it started everything.
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It started over there
from what the news says.
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Well, they seem to
have it under control,
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but we'll never
know, you're right.
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But the Falun Gong,
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I need to maybe
spell it out a bit more.
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Yes, spell it out a little more.
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What it was as
Falun Gong were exercise.
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It was
basically a fitness regime
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that derived from I think Daoism
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and Chinese spiritual exercises
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for one of better word,
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but it was passed off
just like yoga is in the West
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is really just a group exercise.
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And the Chinese
government reaction
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was very interesting
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because I don't think
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they particularly
saw it as religion.
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What they saw it in
was an organized group
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that could rise up against them.
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They didn't like the
fact that a lot of people
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were gathering together
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and not talking about communism.
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So very quickly, they
tried to squash it out.
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And I think it's just the spirit
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of independence rather than a,
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than any
particular views of Falun Gong
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that they've resisted.
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And so huge numbers of
them were regularly imprisoned,
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and persecuted, and
intersects with what...
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The evidence is spotty,
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but it seems pretty
overwhelming though,
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that there's some sort
of organ trading from China
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of executed prisoners and so on.
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So the whole thing
is just very troubling
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from the point of view
of torture civil liberties
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and behind it all persecution,
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in this case calling
it religious persecution,
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even though they're not
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just like you mentioned
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Scientologists
in another program,
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you know, you can debate
whether they're a religion,
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but if they're
treated as a religion,
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then you have to
interject and say,
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this is religious persecution.
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Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
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Well, I said
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I haven't followed it that much,
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but I do know when this
kind of authoritarian regimes,
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they demand absolute loyalty.
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And if you give it to God
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or to your
exercise class or something,
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they do get a little
scary, scared with it.
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But let's get, let's really
get biblical for a second.
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Okay.
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What you just said is true.
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So how does that relate to say
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Daniel living in the
court of King Nebuchadnezzar
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and others in the Old Testament,
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under the Babylonian exile?
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They were dealing
with total despots.
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You look cross-eyed at
the guy, they have your head,
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and yet some have
faith continued practice
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of religion.
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So is it
necessary a prerequisite
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for religious liberty
to do away with despotism?
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Well, I guess it
depends on the despot,
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if the despot leaves you alone,
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you know, but I've often thought
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about that suppose...
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Well, that's...
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I'm glad you're
now risen to the bait,
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but we seldom talk about it.
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We go on the premise
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that religious
liberty goes hand in hand
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with democracy.
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It's the best relationship,
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but if you're
following conscience,
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it must be possible
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without, 'cause there's no call
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that I see in the Christian
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or any other
honest person of faith
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to overthrow a government,
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just because it
objects to your faith
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in some level or
there's a contradiction.
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Well, I thought about, you
know, you mentioned Daniel,
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suppose your country was
overrun by a foreign power
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and they burn your cities
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and they took
your people captive
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and they raged your temple.
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This is what happened with it.
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Yeah, and then
you're taken to there
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and you suddenly become
a favorite in the court.
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You've suddenly
become a favorite.
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And you're... Quisling.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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You wonder, would not
Daniel have been deemed
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a traitor by his own people?
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It's an interesting point.
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And then yet in the end,
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you know, the Book of Daniel
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is one of the revered
books it's in the Bible
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and yet here he was, and...
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Well, I can think of one
where that must've been so,
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Esther and Mordechai.
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Yeah. Well, yes...
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Mordechai
clearly would have seen
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as a bit of a co-opted Jew.
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He was so close at hand,
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you know, why
did he need to work
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in the king's palace?
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Well, whatever it
was he turned out,
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that turned out
to help the people.
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Well, yeah, that's my point.
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You could make a case
that, that he was in a,
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not a compromise, but
an unfortunate situation,
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but it was to the benefit
of the practice of religion.
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But I've often
wondered that about Daniel,
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how we would have,
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you know, we often look
in this paragon of virtue
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and I don't question it,
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but suppose it was
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that I'm not helping you at all.
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You know, they brought him
in the kingdom, you burned,
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they might have
murdered his parents.
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Well, you know, the
Psalm about the rivers.
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I mean, that's the song
by the rivers of Babylon,
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there we sat down.
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What number Psalm is that?
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I don't remember. They
asked us to sing a song.
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How could we sing?
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Blessed is he that dashes
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your little ones
against the rocks, remember?
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Yeah, when Zion is in ruins.
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That was the attitude as
they went into captivity.
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Yeah, and yet here
are these guys loyal,
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faithful in the
kingdom working for,
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you know, and for the
king and set over them.
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And I don't know, I've learned
a lot of things in the Bible.
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There's whole
cultures and things
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that are just totally alien
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to our way of
looking at the world.
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And I just take it on faith,
even what I don't understand.
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Well, let me make
it more contemporary
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and this is not
even theoretical.
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You're a
Seventh-day Adventist in Baghdad
00:11:02.49\00:11:06.03
under Saddam Hussein.
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He treated the
Adventist very nicely.
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I know, this is said.
00:11:09.40\00:11:10.73
He treated the
Adventist, they all had...
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He treated most
Christians pretty nicely.
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Yeah, they were not favorites.
00:11:14.34\00:11:16.30
I better not set
us up for trouble,
00:11:16.34\00:11:18.64
but he wasn't
directly persecuting them.
00:11:18.67\00:11:21.24
In fact, Saddam
Hussein in spite of his PR
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if it's toward
the end of his regime
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was not really in favor
of Islamic fundamentalism.
00:11:28.22\00:11:30.52
He wasn't.
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He was at war
with the fundamentals
00:11:31.92\00:11:34.02
and they had a
separation of church and state
00:11:34.06\00:11:37.86
to support him.
00:11:37.89\00:11:39.23
He just didn't want
religious people meddling.
00:11:39.26\00:11:41.00
So he treated the
different religious groups,
00:11:41.03\00:11:44.70
including
Christians about the same.
00:11:44.73\00:11:46.07
Yeah.
00:11:46.10\00:11:47.44
And then they, we
overthrow Saddam Hussein
00:11:47.47\00:11:49.94
to bring freedom to the Iraqis
00:11:49.97\00:11:52.67
and before long
all the Christians
00:11:52.71\00:11:55.21
had to flee for their lives.
00:11:55.24\00:11:57.48
He, I've been...
00:11:57.51\00:11:59.11
That's what I'm
saying, unintended conspiracy.
00:11:59.15\00:12:00.65
I'm not a defender of
Saddam Hussein in any way,
00:12:00.68\00:12:05.19
shape or form,
00:12:05.22\00:12:06.55
but he did keep a
lid on the country.
00:12:06.59\00:12:09.69
He did keep a lid on
those religious groups.
00:12:09.72\00:12:14.23
A person of faith
00:12:14.26\00:12:16.26
in a, in an aberrant
00:12:16.30\00:12:17.80
or less than ideal
political situation.
00:12:17.83\00:12:20.04
If their faith
is not restricted,
00:12:20.07\00:12:23.54
what is their obligation
beyond living for their faith?
00:12:23.57\00:12:26.51
Well, I don't know.
00:12:26.54\00:12:27.88
You know, they,
what did Peter say,
00:12:27.91\00:12:30.15
"Honor the emperor?"
00:12:30.18\00:12:31.78
Well, that was...
And who was the emperor?
00:12:31.81\00:12:34.52
Nero. It's a good point.
00:12:34.55\00:12:35.88
Nero, so, I mean, you
don't find in the Bible,
00:12:35.92\00:12:42.12
you don't see in the example,
00:12:42.16\00:12:43.63
Jesus lived at a
time of a corrupt...
00:12:43.66\00:12:46.19
Christians are not
called... This is my view.
00:12:46.23\00:12:48.03
I'll say it this way,
Christians are not called
00:12:48.06\00:12:50.73
to be social revolutionaries.
00:12:50.77\00:12:54.60
We are called to
challenge the social norms.
00:12:54.64\00:12:57.64
If it's persecuting
the poor or whatever,
00:12:57.67\00:13:00.78
but we're not to
challenge the authority system
00:13:00.81\00:13:03.55
because God's
eternal kingdom is at stake.
00:13:03.58\00:13:05.21
Well, yeah, but then what about
00:13:05.25\00:13:07.48
Bonhoeffer
planning to try to kill him?
00:13:07.52\00:13:09.58
I don't like that story.
00:13:09.62\00:13:11.39
You know, yeah. Well...
00:13:11.42\00:13:13.56
I don't, he was a spy
for the Germans at one point.
00:13:13.59\00:13:17.03
He was playing in the game
00:13:17.06\00:13:19.06
that Christian
shouldn't have been,
00:13:19.09\00:13:21.20
and yes, who knows
his motives, I don't know.
00:13:21.23\00:13:24.17
But he got
eaten up by the system
00:13:24.20\00:13:25.93
that he was dabbling with.
00:13:25.97\00:13:27.30
But I mean, in the
end we've had this,
00:13:27.34\00:13:29.80
I've had this discussion.
00:13:29.84\00:13:31.57
It would be
wrong for the German...
00:13:31.61\00:13:34.34
We criticize today up and down
the German Christian Church.
00:13:34.38\00:13:40.12
Why did the
German church acquiesce?
00:13:40.15\00:13:42.95
Why did they acquiesce?
00:13:42.98\00:13:44.72
We criticize them
so much for doing that.
00:13:44.75\00:13:49.09
They didn't acquiesce.
They swore open field.
00:13:49.12\00:13:51.36
Yeah, that's what I'm
saying. That's what I'm saying.
00:13:51.39\00:13:53.90
And, but, well, they're
just, they weren't fighting.
00:13:53.93\00:13:57.03
This was God's put government.
00:13:57.07\00:13:58.63
We've come through a
bitter political time.
00:13:58.67\00:14:00.54
And, you know,
without throwing my towel in
00:14:00.57\00:14:03.47
as to which side or
which president or whatever,
00:14:03.51\00:14:05.34
that's sort of immaterial,
00:14:05.37\00:14:06.71
but people should think
long and hard that the Nazis,
00:14:06.74\00:14:09.64
when they came to
power, I've seen the quotes.
00:14:09.68\00:14:11.61
Hitler said,
00:14:11.65\00:14:12.98
"National socialism is
based on Christianity."
00:14:13.01\00:14:15.82
Of course. Said
all the right things.
00:14:15.85\00:14:18.09
So you know, it
isn't those sort of
00:14:18.12\00:14:21.16
public statements
don't throw your lot in
00:14:21.19\00:14:23.12
with any erstwhile Hitler
00:14:23.16\00:14:26.36
or even a jumped up
sort of any tin pot dictator,
00:14:26.39\00:14:32.60
just because they
speak well of your faith.
00:14:32.63\00:14:34.60
If they truly
are walking the walk
00:14:34.64\00:14:38.44
and are kind
toward people of faith.
00:14:38.47\00:14:40.28
And, of course,
Hitler sent Catholics
00:14:40.31\00:14:44.25
and others to execution.
00:14:44.28\00:14:46.41
I've read the story that
individual Roman Catholics
00:14:46.45\00:14:50.62
were refusing to go
00:14:50.65\00:14:55.62
into military
service at the time
00:14:55.66\00:14:57.66
when Rome had
struck a concordant with.
00:14:57.69\00:15:01.30
And they would cite
00:15:01.33\00:15:02.66
that the judges would
cite that to the Catholics,
00:15:02.70\00:15:04.97
but they still executed them.
00:15:05.00\00:15:06.63
Wow.
00:15:06.67\00:15:08.74
We'll take a break
and be back shortly.
00:15:08.77\00:15:10.47
Interesting discussion.
00:15:10.51\00:15:11.84