Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI200494B
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00:01 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider
00:02 before the break with guest Clifford Goldstein. 00:06 I nearly said... Remember my name. 00:08 You forgot my name already. 00:09 I nearly said palmist instead of psalmist, 00:11 I got little off. 00:14 Words slip out. 00:15 You're getting old, Lincoln. Yes. 00:18 I'm not 65, but I've got a couple of years on you. 00:22 I've got more hair too. 00:24 Gotta get that dig in. Go ahead. 00:26 Come on. Go ahead. 00:28 Cut on that. 00:30 Anyhow, Clifford Goldstein, 00:33 you may be known to some of our viewers 00:34 from other programs. 00:36 You've been on this way back 00:38 and edited Liberty magazine for years. 00:41 So let's really get into the philosophy 00:42 of this again. 00:44 I know you and I love talking about this. 00:45 And religious liberty is a real world issue, 00:49 but behind it lies 00:51 some philosophical/ theological equations. 00:55 Well, I think right off the bat, 00:58 one of the foundational things in religious liberty 01:01 is your belief in God. 01:03 Okay? 01:04 And to believe in God, 01:05 there's a whole host of philosophical assumptions. 01:09 Now, but remember, religion has suffered. 01:10 That's fine, we accept that as Christians. 01:13 But if someone has used their deductive logical powers 01:17 and they've chosen another God or another... 01:20 Well, I bet. Well, another God is... 01:21 Then you led logically. 01:23 And I heard 01:24 a Roman Catholic Cardinal say this. 01:25 What? 01:27 He spoke for his own church and he says, 01:28 "We Catholics once believed that error has no rights." 01:33 They came at this from this philosopher, 01:35 philosophical thing. 01:36 That someone that's not intelligent enough 01:38 deductively to recognize God 01:41 they're in utter darkness 01:42 because they're corrupt and faulty in their thinking. 01:45 And they don't warrant respect. 01:49 And remember with Liberty magazine, 01:51 you pursued this, 01:52 well, you and I know, and we have our faith 01:54 and we believe it. 01:56 We have to grant the right from, 01:57 to someone to choose wrongly, 02:00 to dedicate their life 02:02 to a totally futile philosophical 02:05 or religious endeavor. 02:06 Because they would think the same with us. 02:08 They would think the same with us. 02:10 And that's, I think the beauty... 02:11 It's not quite the same thing as evangelizing 02:14 on behalf of Christ and the Christian faith. 02:17 And I, again too, I think you come back 02:19 to the reality of the gospel, 02:23 where God allowed his from the beginning, 02:27 He allowed Adam and Eve the freedom to disobey. 02:32 Now they face a penalty for it. 02:34 And then yet the amazing thing is they received it 02:37 right after they sinned, 02:38 you know, and they're gonna face this 02:39 immediate penalty, 02:41 but He gave them the promise that, 02:42 you know, when they call the proto-evangelium, 02:45 which is the first gospel promise 02:48 that he's going to solve the problem. 02:51 So... 02:53 We can never understand it totally, 02:55 but you know, these little, these innocent beings, 02:59 and of course there's a lot unsaid 03:01 even in Bible and so. 03:03 It may have been many, many years 03:04 that they were tutored by angels, 03:08 heavenly intelligences, 03:09 we don't know how naive they were at that point 03:12 when the serpent whispers to Eve, 03:16 you know, we tend to think of them 03:17 as sort of like, you know, 03:19 grade school kids or worse total naives. 03:23 Well, yeah, I don't, I don't know. 03:26 I don't think... 03:27 If they failed like the first week after creation, 03:30 that would be a little more problematic. 03:31 But on my understanding they were warned not to eat 03:35 of the tree 03:36 and they went and it was blatant disobedience 03:41 in the face of a clear warning. 03:42 Huh? What did Paul say? 03:45 Well, he blamed that on Eve first. 03:47 He said she was deceived that Adam was not. 03:50 Yeah. And so Adam, well, I think... 03:52 But isn't that blatant? 03:53 If there was blatant, 03:55 that was with Adam not with Eve. 03:56 Yeah. 03:57 And you know, that's why we often, 03:59 scripture often talks about you go to Romans 5. 04:02 It doesn't say Adam and Eve fell or Eve fell. 04:04 It was Adam fell. 04:06 Christ came to fix, Adam fell, Christ fixed it. 04:09 Adam fell, Christ fixed it. 04:11 It's all the time Adam. 04:13 Now you could argue that's the biblical patriarchy 04:16 or whatever you want. 04:17 But in the end, you know... 04:18 Well, for human conduct it makes no difference. 04:20 They're all male or female, 04:22 we're all descendants of the first couple. 04:25 But what is... 04:27 What would you say is the philosophic? 04:28 All right. 04:29 I've been out of Liberty now for 20 something years. 04:31 Okay. 04:33 I just kind of forgot a lot, 04:34 but what would you say is the foundational fundamental, 04:39 philosophical pillar 04:43 of religious liberty, 04:44 if you could put it in a quick way? 04:47 Well, I alluded to it and it's not often said, 04:50 and many of our supporters, 04:53 I don't think are willing to go that far, 04:55 but we have to be set to defend the right of human beings 05:00 to follow their conscience 05:03 in whatever they choose 05:05 in religious matters or against religion. 05:06 But why, why? 05:08 We accept that 05:09 and will defend their right to do so, to our death. 05:13 Why would you do that? 05:14 What is your philosophical, you're willing to die 05:18 to let somebody believe something that's, 05:21 you know, I mean... 05:22 At root, that has to go back to what you were talking about. 05:24 You would only have such a respect 05:28 for a fellow human being to be wrong. 05:30 If you with an acceptance of what God has done 05:33 on our behalf. 05:35 And can place that value on us as human beings. 05:37 Yes. 05:38 I don't think a Buddhist could as easily come 05:41 to that statement. 05:42 No. 05:44 I mean, they might be a better human being. 05:45 I'm not criticizing Buddhist per se, 05:47 but the philosophical background 05:49 wouldn't lead you to that. 05:50 But as Seventh-day Adventist Christians, 05:54 and I'm quite have to be convinced 05:56 that the Bible is God's way of communicating to man. 06:00 And that in these later times, 06:01 there's an imminent expectation of Christ return. 06:04 I'm happy enough with that. 06:06 But I can't force it on other people. 06:08 But I can defend religious liberty 06:10 because without the ability of people 06:12 to make up their choice, 06:14 then they're not going to choose this, 06:16 but they may choose something else. 06:17 I have to be neutral, 06:19 just like the separation of church 06:20 and state we have to... 06:21 But where do you draw the line? 06:23 Keep the coercion out of the game. 06:24 I remember when I edited Liberty... 06:30 We used to help the Scientologists. 06:33 Okay. 06:35 And that used to bug me no end to try to help them. 06:40 Okay. 06:42 Because, we had the head of the Scientology, 06:44 you know what they did when we were in Germany. 06:45 We have the head of the science. 06:46 Oh, the other group. 06:48 I'll never forget this time, 06:50 we had in the office in the protocol lounge, 06:53 the children of God. 06:55 Do you remember them? No. 06:56 The children of God were founded on the beaches 06:59 of Southern California in the 1960s. 07:02 Yeah, it was a Jesus movement. One of them. 07:04 I remember I was at a religious liberty meeting 07:06 with some of them in Rio de Janeiro once. 07:09 And I said, "One thing about your children of God, folks. 07:13 You're the only people I know 07:14 who can make the Moonies look mainstream." 07:16 Okay. But anyway, these people... 07:20 Well, we can laugh about it, 07:21 but I'm sure we defend 07:24 their right to believe that because they... 07:26 Yeah, we have to believe, see belief. 07:29 But how far, look, how far did our religious liberty go 07:32 in this country 07:33 with our Latter-day Saint brothers and sisters 07:36 with their polygamy. 07:38 We drove them out. We made it illegal parable. 07:41 What about religious freedom league? 07:43 What about the right to believe and to practice? 07:46 There are... 07:47 You're not talking about Liberty magazine 07:49 or Seventh-day Adventist, we didn't persecute them. 07:51 No, no, no. But I'm saying the country did. 07:52 Do you think they were, 07:54 you think we should have let the Mormons do polygamy? 07:55 You're getting into a bigger question. 07:56 The US is not without some mistakes 08:00 in dealing with religious thing. 08:01 Well, you think it was a mistake 08:02 to let the Mormon, to not, 08:05 to stop the Mormons from polygamy. 08:07 You think it was a mistake, now maybe... 08:09 I think it's within the right of a civil society 08:12 where the majority for good, 08:14 for reasons of the good of the majority 08:16 have acted on something. 08:18 But as a matter of conscience, 08:20 I would defend the right of Mormons 08:24 to practice that, 08:26 but accept the punishment. 08:27 Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, come on, come on. 08:30 You got the freedom. 08:31 You know, you remind me of a joke. 08:33 This Russian immigrant came over from Russia 08:35 and he says, "We have freedom of speech in Russia, 08:39 the difference is in America, 08:40 you have freedom after you speak." 08:42 No, I'm not excusing the restriction, 08:44 but I'm saying, 08:46 and this is a fallacy that's come over many people 08:48 in our day and age 08:50 because we're not used to being restricted. 08:51 Yeah. There's always a cost. 08:53 Usually a social cost. 08:56 Someone might laugh at you if you're a Mooney. 09:01 You know, that may happen, 09:03 but sometimes there's an actual restriction. 09:06 You might not be able to run 09:07 a cake making business for gays. 09:10 I'm actually stating it 09:12 because I don't think there's a contradiction there 09:13 if you do it correctly. 09:15 Sure. 09:16 But, you know, there's certain real world things 09:18 to have a certain religious attitude, 09:21 it's going to cost you something. 09:23 You can't have religion without a cost. 09:26 At the beginning in Christianity it cost you. 09:29 It has to cost you, your old way of thinking. 09:31 But I thought we were all for... 09:33 You're gonna die to defend somebody's freedom. 09:34 We are not libertarians. 09:35 You're gonna die to defend somebody's right 09:38 to believe what they want. 09:39 And you know, so would you die 09:41 to defend the Mormons 09:43 right for polygamy or the children of God? 09:46 They used the thing called fishy flirting. 09:49 They would use sex to lure people 09:52 into their religion. 09:54 It's not illegal. 09:55 Do you wanna defend it? 09:57 Well, technically if it's not legal. 09:59 I have to defend their conscience. 10:00 Yeah. 10:01 Well, so and so, and they came to us for help. 10:03 And I can't remember what it was. 10:06 We try to dilly-dally Mormon... These are difficult questions. 10:10 But remember, 10:11 if we don't watch this question, 10:13 we will get into a paternalistic attitude 10:15 that the Roman Church best exemplify, 10:18 where it knows 10:19 what's best for your eternal soul. 10:20 And as the Cardinal says, "Error has no right." 10:23 You're wrong. 10:25 So we know better we will force you 10:26 to behave a certain way. 10:29 Well, it's always, 10:31 in the end it's a matter aligned wrong. 10:34 We believe in religious freedom. 10:37 But at what point, if your religion, 10:39 you know, you don't want, well, I was gonna say, 10:42 vaccinate your kids but that gets a little sticky, 10:44 but we have always put restrictions on how, 10:49 on you can believe whatever you want, 10:51 but there are certain religious practices 10:54 that just because it comes under the name of religion, 10:57 you ain't gonna get government protection 11:00 and you should get government protection. 11:08 I remember quite a few years ago, 11:10 seeing a clip with the filmmaker, 11:12 an actor, Woody Allen was in a sensitivity session 11:16 and they were studying their navels. 11:18 And one of his companions went on and on 11:21 about all that he saw, 11:22 when he looked within and Woody Allen says, 11:24 "You must have a wide screen navel." 11:27 You can pull a lot of stuff 11:30 if not truth out of a navel. 11:33 Philosophy can end that way if you're not careful. 11:39 I think it's very significant that Paul, 11:40 when he went to the seat of philosophy, 11:43 to Athens and debated pretty articulately 11:47 with those philosophers. 11:49 Came away from it saying, 11:50 I determined to know nothing among you saved Jesus Christ 11:55 and Him crucified. 11:57 There should be a philosophical, rational, 12:00 well thought out based to our faith. 12:03 But at the end of the day, it's knowing a person, 12:07 not a viewpoint that will save us. 12:11 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2021-03-04