Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI200493A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is a program designed to get you thinking 00:32 about religious liberty developments in the US 00:34 and around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:39 And my guest on this program is my good friend, 00:42 Clifford Goldstein, 00:44 once an editor of Liberty Magazine 00:45 and currently editing the Bible study guides 00:48 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church worldwide. 00:50 It's a massive distribution. 00:54 But I'm sure you still have a little spot in your heart 00:57 for Liberty Magazine 00:58 and all the hurly-burly of what that involves. 01:01 There're aspects of it I miss. 01:02 Yeah, I'm sure some aspects here, 01:04 although you're on the big money now, 01:06 you don't have to worry. 01:07 I'm just joking, 01:09 but you know, we're living through 01:10 an interesting period now. 01:11 This is the COVID era. 01:13 When it finishes, I think sometime in 2021, 01:17 but we don't really know. 01:19 But, you know, I'm reminded of a quote. 01:21 I forget who said it, but he says, 01:24 "This is the way the world ends, 01:26 not with a bang, but with a whimper." 01:28 It's Robert Frost I think, it was Frost's poem. 01:31 But I sometimes fear that that's what's happening. 01:34 You and I are here filming this program, 01:37 but different our subsets of the church organization 01:41 have basically shut down, right? 01:42 We're not supposed to travel. 01:44 We have, I have permission. 01:47 But that troubles me 01:48 how quickly a lot of church operations 01:51 just shut down. 01:52 Well, a lot of everything. 01:54 A lot of everything, yeah. 01:55 Of course, this is what we wanna discuss, 01:57 but religion early on, 01:58 there's been some court cases 01:59 lately that have challenged that, 02:02 but early on religious services 02:04 certainly didn't pass muster's essential services. 02:09 Did that trouble you 02:10 while there is someone working for the church? 02:13 I don't know. 02:14 It's always been the question. 02:17 How do you balance, 02:18 you know, this stuff is all balance of rights. 02:21 It's a balance of rights. 02:23 Well, legally it is maybe not philosophically 02:27 or not the individual 02:28 that's standing for its principle. 02:29 You do wonder it's okay to run out in the street 02:31 and protest and burn down buildings 02:33 and people don't complain. 02:34 But if you go and gather in a church service, 02:37 you're suddenly, 02:38 you know, so there's certain elements of 02:40 which certainly appears to be... 02:42 Well, that's what the judges in New York were starting, 02:44 they were allowing demonstrations, 02:45 restricting churches, and that was... 02:47 Yeah, so some of these things are, 02:49 but look, this COVID thing, 02:53 it took the world by a storm. 02:56 I don't think anybody saw this coming 03:01 and by the time it came, nobody knew. 03:05 I mean, I imagine in hindsight of time 03:07 with we're here 20 years from now, 03:09 people might come back and think, 03:10 "Oh, we should have done this. We should have done that." 03:13 I want to believe that most of the people involved 03:17 are doing what they think was best. 03:20 I want to think most people, but... 03:22 That's certainly not a great sign of forethought 03:25 to the extreme things that are done. 03:26 Yeah, it just seems to, but if anything, 03:29 it shows how radically... 03:34 The world can change. 03:35 The world can change 03:37 and how radically America can change 03:39 and how we could be going along doing our thing and then boom! 03:45 Overnight, everything changes. 03:49 And I think it's understandable a lot of Americans. 03:53 And I suppose around the world, 03:55 people have found this very disconcerting. 03:58 You know, you hear stories 04:00 of increasing pharmaceutical for antidepressants 04:05 and increase of people, mental problems and so on. 04:09 I mean, if you're struggling to begin with. 04:11 And then you have 04:12 this massive thing coming along, 04:15 which is affecting everybody, it's a little scary. 04:18 Well, I've thought about it in the light of a book 04:22 that really influenced me back in college, 1984. 04:26 Well, everybody, 04:28 you know, they've been putting parallels to 1984 in front 04:31 and that we remember when year 1984 came, 04:34 there were all these, 04:36 and there were no parallels back then. 04:37 I remember writing an editorial in 1984. 04:39 Yeah, 1984. 04:41 I mean, it was a great book and I know what you mean. 04:43 But what I, what I'm getting at is one, 04:45 there were many aspects in his very insightful 04:48 and progressive little book. 04:51 It's not very big, 04:53 but he was projecting tendencies 04:55 that were already obvious in his era. 04:57 Almost dealing with Soviet Union and all that. 05:00 You know, I'll get on side with you, 05:01 you know, the Trump administration, 05:03 I could critique it or love it. 05:05 You know, people go both ways. 05:07 But it was characterized 05:09 from the early days Trump was saying fake news, 05:12 right, questioning the news? 05:14 If you believe the American news media, 05:17 you are dumber than I ever imagined. 05:20 I don't believe there's a force for more evil in this country 05:26 than the mainstream news media. 05:29 I think they are a force for evil. 05:31 I guess this program is living up 05:33 to a provocative image. 05:34 That is a great, a fake news. 05:36 Of course, it didn't start with Trump. 05:38 No, but in 1984, remember, there's three powers. 05:44 And no two can beat any other one power 05:46 and they're constantly changing. 05:48 And when they realign 05:51 the same slogans are put on the wall 05:52 with no recognition of change. 05:54 So it's like, you sort of, 05:56 your reality is constantly being remanufactured. 06:00 And that was the charge on the fake news 06:02 that it's not reality. 06:03 It's just sort of, 06:05 it's a fiction being put at you. 06:06 And on one level, 06:08 yes, anybody that's traveled or read other media knows 06:12 that for some decades now, American media, 06:15 not that people in the US 06:16 necessarily less competent to judge news, 06:20 but there's so much entertainment... 06:22 And there're so many sources. 06:23 Source, yeah. 06:25 But still the delusions of the modern life 06:29 has sort of captivated America more than most countries. 06:32 They'd rather learn about the Kardashians 06:34 than real political development, right? 06:36 Yeah, of course. 06:37 So if you want real news, you go overseas. 06:39 But still the statement 06:40 that you made on the face of it is dangerous 06:43 because as you well know 06:45 democracy depends 06:47 on having a free and open press. 06:49 And so to restrict the press we're saying... 06:51 I'm not saying restrict that, but I'm just saying... 06:53 But that's what's going on now fake news, 06:55 so we disregard that we close them down. 06:57 Well, you know, it was so funny a while back. 06:58 And I guess I should, 07:00 there were some stuff out on Facebook 07:01 that there were some riots 07:03 and the police were harassing the press, 07:05 and I would've given them money to beat the press 07:08 you know, 50 bucks for, you know, fight. 07:11 I'd give a cop a $10,000 award 07:13 to go club a couple of New York Times people. 07:15 I'm sure you're speaking figuratively. 07:17 Yeah. 07:20 Well, okay. 07:21 We'll go with that for sanity sake. 07:23 But the point is... 07:25 But once information, once information is restricted, 07:27 then... 07:28 Well, I'm not saying that... 07:29 Then anti-Democratic forces will run amok. 07:31 I don't want the government restricting the press. 07:34 But I just think they're evil. 07:36 They're evil. They're forces for evil. 07:38 You know, I remember I was 18 years old 07:42 and I got a job as a copy boy at the Miami Herald. 07:45 I was a copy boy. 07:46 Okay, gofer. Okay. 07:48 And I'm just, so I was interested in writing 07:53 and I wasn't particularly political 07:56 and I never particularly liked Richard Nixon, 07:58 but I used to come home 08:01 and my father used to talk about 08:03 how angry I was at how distorted 08:09 they were out to get the president. 08:11 Okay. 08:13 They were, you know, and I thought, wait a minute. 08:14 I thought this is a newspaper. 08:16 I thought, and then how naive I was 08:19 to think that a newspaper would be honest 08:22 and objective and so on. 08:26 And it was always that way. 08:28 But in the era of Trump, 08:30 putting aside what you think about Trump. 08:33 You know what I think of Trump. 08:34 They were out to get him, and it was so unfair 08:36 and so dishonest 08:39 and putting aside whether you like Trump or not, 08:42 but that has, so I agree with him. 08:44 I don't trust the news media at anything. 08:47 Well, I would put it in another way. 08:48 I don't believe they were... 08:49 And we're straying a little, 08:51 I don't think there's hard evidence 08:53 that they were out to get Trump. 08:54 Oh, come on. 08:56 You can't be serious, man. 08:59 Listen. You can't be serious. 09:00 You might think they're right. 09:02 You might think he's Hitler, he's evil. 09:04 But to think that they weren't out to get him, 09:07 you got to be kidding me. 09:08 Let me finish the sentence. Okay, go ahead. 09:10 I don't think from day one, they were. 09:13 What set the cat among the pigeons 09:15 was in particular, 09:17 a candidate then President Trump 09:19 accusing them, 09:21 they're evil and all the rest. 09:22 So he created enmity, and once that was started. 09:25 Yes. I think... 09:27 But a lot of journalists have been spared. 09:28 But that's not, that's not in itself news. 09:29 There's been, I've lived through presidencies 09:32 where the press were opposed to them. 09:35 But if you have an open press, 09:37 they'll have this paper that's opposed to them, 09:40 this one that supporting, 09:42 and it's in the multiplicity of voices 09:44 that you can get at the truth. 09:45 And then there are liable laws and all the rest that can be, 09:49 you want, you don't want the Randolph Hearst thing 09:52 where it's just fabrications thrown at people. 09:55 Yeah. 09:56 But there is a protective element 10:00 in an open society where you have... 10:01 Well, I agree we need them, 10:03 but it's unfortunate what happened to our press. 10:04 What people are confusing and it's a false model. 10:09 The idea that the press should be unbiased, 10:12 who says they never were. 10:14 Never. Well. 10:15 Yeah, but the point is when you have a newspaper 10:16 The media is not unbiased. 10:18 Yeah. Of course, but it's... 10:19 Nobody has a biblical viewpoint and a prophetic understanding 10:22 that Adventist bring to it. 10:24 Well, but see, it's different when you have a publication 10:26 like what you've got. 10:27 Okay. 10:29 Of course, we've got, 10:30 but when you have the idea of a big city newspaper. 10:33 You have idea, they're going to present the news. 10:35 You've got the editorial section, 10:37 you know, so on, you got a magazine. 10:39 Like we said, the New Republic, it was always left wing. 10:42 That was fine. 10:43 Or Harper's is very left wing or National Review right wing, 10:47 that's different, 10:48 Rush Limbaugh is gonna be a right winger. 10:50 Okay. Yeah. 10:51 That's different. 10:53 But when you have these news outlets 10:55 that supposedly just bringing you the news, 10:58 you know, that mean, 10:59 we're a long way from CBS News with Walter Cronkite, 11:03 a long way. 11:05 He might judge on what's happening in, 11:06 with the news in the US, I see it. 11:08 Right? 11:10 As you used to, 11:11 I go to a lot of these events in Washington. 11:13 Sure. 11:14 And you go to this political event 11:18 where there, 11:20 maybe ahead of time, they've announced 11:21 they're talking about some topic 11:23 or some initiative, 11:24 but whatever, 11:25 you know, I go there 11:27 and I see the different stringers in that 11:28 for the different papers and services come. 11:31 You go into the room, at 11:32 the door there's the handout with the material. 11:36 And I'm telling you nine times out of 10 anymore, 11:39 what you read in the newspaper is that stuff repeated. 11:42 Yeah. 11:44 And the changes, 11:46 you know, to seize on a date as good as any 11:50 probably around the Clinton administration, 11:53 when there was a reshuffling of the economy, 11:56 remember there was a period where people lost their jobs, 11:59 got them back, 12:00 but they got employed at a lower level. 12:03 Essentially people were turned into service industries 12:06 and the news medias dropped there like Reuters 12:10 and that became nothing. 12:11 They used to have a lot of people 12:13 like in the Watergate era 12:15 where they could do investigative journalism. 12:17 They don't do that anymore 12:18 because they don't have the budget. 12:19 There's only a few people 12:21 and they take what's given to them 12:23 either spew it back 12:25 or if they have a deep seated bias, 12:26 they challenge it. 12:27 But there's not what true media did investigate... 12:33 Like spotlight, you remember spotlight. 12:35 Yes. That's not done anymore. 12:37 The superficiality, 12:39 that to me is more dangerous 12:41 than even erroneous information or a biased viewpoint. 12:45 The news media has gone wacko in this country. 12:49 And you've gotta be an idiot 12:50 to believe what you see on the media. 12:52 But what's accomplished in the last few years, 12:54 which I think is deadly dangerous, 12:55 not just for religious liberty. 12:57 It's, religious liberty 12:58 is inextricably tied up with civil liberties. 13:02 You can't separate the two, 13:03 but the media attack is on civil liberty 13:06 and the information that provides an open society. 13:09 So to cast doubts 13:10 for just a blanket discrediting of the news media 13:16 is it is dangerous to the extreme... 13:18 Well, they deserve it, I'm sorry. 13:19 Well, they might deserve it, but it's still very dangerous. 13:21 Well, I mean it's all we got, we're stuck with it. 13:24 Fortunately, now in the day of the internet, 13:26 there are other sources, 13:27 but how much of them you could trust is, 13:30 you know, I don't know. 13:33 It's a scary time. 13:34 I know you've challenged me 13:36 before getting a biblical analogy, 13:37 but, you know, the Bible says 13:39 my people perish for lack of knowledge. 13:42 If you're not well-informed, you can't make good decisions. 13:45 Well, democracies function 13:47 on the idea of a well-informed public. 13:52 And unfortunately, I don't, 13:55 I read something where 10 years ago, 13:58 or something, 67% of Americans, 14:02 when you have the word Holocaust 14:05 with a capital H, 14:07 60%, 67% of Americans 14:09 didn't know what you were talking about. 14:12 Things like that get very scary. 14:13 And I doubt that it's been true for the last administration, 14:16 but the statistics 14:17 have been pretty consistent beyond that, 14:19 between elections. 14:20 I think it's only about again the sixth. 14:22 I think it's 6% of Americans can name the sitting president. 14:25 Wow. That's stifling. 14:26 How many? 14:28 It was only about six? 14:29 Very, very, single digit number. 14:31 We'll be back after a short break, 14:32 stay with us. 14:34 Interesting discussion. |
Revised 2021-02-25