Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
designed to get you thinking
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about religious
liberty developments in the US
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is my good friend,
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Clifford Goldstein,
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once an editor
of Liberty Magazine
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and currently editing
the Bible study guides
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for the Seventh-day
Adventist Church worldwide.
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It's a massive distribution.
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But I'm sure you still
have a little spot in your heart
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for Liberty Magazine
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and all the hurly-burly
of what that involves.
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There're aspects of it I miss.
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Yeah, I'm sure
some aspects here,
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although you're
on the big money now,
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you don't have to worry.
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I'm just joking,
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but you know,
we're living through
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an interesting period now.
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This is the COVID era.
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When it finishes, I
think sometime in 2021,
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but we don't really know.
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But, you know, I'm
reminded of a quote.
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I forget who
said it, but he says,
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"This is the way the world ends,
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not with a bang,
but with a whimper."
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It's Robert Frost I
think, it was Frost's poem.
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But I sometimes fear
that that's what's happening.
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You and I are here
filming this program,
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but different our subsets
of the church organization
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have basically shut down, right?
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We're not supposed to travel.
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We have, I have permission.
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But that troubles me
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how quickly a lot
of church operations
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just shut down.
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Well, a lot of everything.
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A lot of everything, yeah.
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Of course, this is
what we wanna discuss,
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but religion early on,
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there's been some court cases
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lately that
have challenged that,
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but early on religious services
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certainly didn't pass
muster's essential services.
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Did that trouble you
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while there is someone
working for the church?
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I don't know.
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It's always been the question.
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How do you balance,
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you know, this stuff
is all balance of rights.
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It's a balance of rights.
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Well, legally it is
maybe not philosophically
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or not the individual
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that's standing
for its principle.
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You do wonder it's okay
to run out in the street
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and protest and
burn down buildings
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and people don't complain.
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But if you go and
gather in a church service,
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you're suddenly,
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you know, so
there's certain elements of
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which certainly appears to be...
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Well, that's what the judges
in New York were starting,
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they were
allowing demonstrations,
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restricting
churches, and that was...
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Yeah, so some of
these things are,
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but look, this COVID thing,
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it took the world by a storm.
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I don't think
anybody saw this coming
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and by the time
it came, nobody knew.
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I mean, I imagine
in hindsight of time
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with we're here
20 years from now,
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people might
come back and think,
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"Oh, we should have done
this. We should have done that."
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I want to believe that
most of the people involved
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are doing what
they think was best.
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I want to think
most people, but...
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That's certainly not a
great sign of forethought
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to the extreme
things that are done.
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Yeah, it just seems
to, but if anything,
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it shows how radically...
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The world can change.
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The world can change
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and how radically
America can change
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and how we could be going along
doing our thing and then boom!
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Overnight, everything changes.
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And I think it's understandable
a lot of Americans.
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And I suppose around the world,
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people have found
this very disconcerting.
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You know, you hear stories
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of increasing pharmaceutical
for antidepressants
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and increase of people,
mental problems and so on.
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I mean, if you're
struggling to begin with.
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And then you have
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this massive thing coming along,
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which is affecting
everybody, it's a little scary.
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Well, I've thought about
it in the light of a book
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that really influenced
me back in college, 1984.
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Well, everybody,
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you know, they've been putting
parallels to 1984 in front
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and that we
remember when year 1984 came,
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there were all these,
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and there were no
parallels back then.
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I remember writing
an editorial in 1984.
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Yeah, 1984.
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I mean, it was a great
book and I know what you mean.
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But what I, what
I'm getting at is one,
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there were many
aspects in his very insightful
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and progressive little book.
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It's not very big,
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but he was projecting tendencies
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that were already
obvious in his era.
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Almost dealing with
Soviet Union and all that.
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You know, I'll
get on side with you,
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you know, the
Trump administration,
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I could critique it or love it.
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You know, people go both ways.
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But it was characterized
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from the early days
Trump was saying fake news,
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right, questioning the news?
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If you believe the
American news media,
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you are dumber
than I ever imagined.
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I don't believe there's a force
for more evil in this country
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than the mainstream news media.
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I think they are
a force for evil.
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I guess this
program is living up
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to a provocative image.
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That is a great, a fake news.
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Of course, it
didn't start with Trump.
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No, but in 1984,
remember, there's three powers.
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And no two can
beat any other one power
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and they're constantly changing.
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And when they realign
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the same slogans
are put on the wall
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with no recognition of change.
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So it's like, you sort of,
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your reality is
constantly being remanufactured.
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And that was the
charge on the fake news
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that it's not reality.
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It's just sort of,
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it's a fiction being put at you.
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And on one level,
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yes, anybody that's traveled
or read other media knows
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that for some
decades now, American media,
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not that people in the US
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necessarily less
competent to judge news,
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but there's so
much entertainment...
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And there're so many sources.
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Source, yeah.
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But still the
delusions of the modern life
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has sort of captivated America
more than most countries.
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They'd rather learn
about the Kardashians
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than real
political development, right?
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Yeah, of course.
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So if you want real
news, you go overseas.
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But still the statement
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that you made on the
face of it is dangerous
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because as you well know
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democracy depends
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on having a free and open press.
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And so to restrict
the press we're saying...
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I'm not saying restrict
that, but I'm just saying...
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But that's what's
going on now fake news,
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so we disregard
that we close them down.
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Well, you know, it
was so funny a while back.
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And I guess I should,
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there were some
stuff out on Facebook
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that there were some riots
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and the police were
harassing the press,
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and I would've given
them money to beat the press
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you know, 50 bucks
for, you know, fight.
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I'd give a cop a $10,000 award
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to go club a couple
of New York Times people.
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I'm sure you're
speaking figuratively.
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Yeah.
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Well, okay.
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We'll go with
that for sanity sake.
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But the point is...
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But once information,
once information is restricted,
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then...
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Well, I'm not saying that...
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Then anti-Democratic
forces will run amok.
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I don't want the government
restricting the press.
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But I just think they're evil.
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They're evil.
They're forces for evil.
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You know, I
remember I was 18 years old
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and I got a job as a
copy boy at the Miami Herald.
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I was a copy boy.
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Okay, gofer. Okay.
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And I'm just, so I
was interested in writing
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and I wasn't
particularly political
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and I never particularly
liked Richard Nixon,
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but I used to come home
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and my father used to talk about
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how angry I was at how distorted
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they were out to
get the president.
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Okay.
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They were, you know, and
I thought, wait a minute.
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I thought this is a newspaper.
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I thought, and
then how naive I was
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to think that a
newspaper would be honest
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and objective and so on.
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And it was always that way.
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But in the era of Trump,
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putting aside what
you think about Trump.
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You know what I think of Trump.
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They were out to get
him, and it was so unfair
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and so dishonest
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and putting aside
whether you like Trump or not,
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but that has, so
I agree with him.
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I don't trust the
news media at anything.
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Well, I would put
it in another way.
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I don't believe they were...
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And we're straying a little,
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I don't think
there's hard evidence
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that they were out to get Trump.
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Oh, come on.
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You can't be serious, man.
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Listen. You can't be serious.
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You might think they're right.
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You might think
he's Hitler, he's evil.
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But to think that they
weren't out to get him,
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you got to be kidding me.
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Let me finish the
sentence. Okay, go ahead.
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I don't think from
day one, they were.
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What set the cat
among the pigeons
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was in particular,
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a candidate then President Trump
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accusing them,
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they're evil and all the rest.
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So he created enmity,
and once that was started.
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Yes. I think...
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But a lot of
journalists have been spared.
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But that's not,
that's not in itself news.
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There's been, I've
lived through presidencies
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where the press
were opposed to them.
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But if you have an open press,
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they'll have this
paper that's opposed to them,
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this one that supporting,
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and it's in the
multiplicity of voices
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that you can get at the truth.
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And then there are liable laws
and all the rest that can be,
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you want, you don't want
the Randolph Hearst thing
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where it's just
fabrications thrown at people.
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Yeah.
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But there is a
protective element
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in an open
society where you have...
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Well, I agree we need them,
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but it's unfortunate
what happened to our press.
00:10:03.20\00:10:04.53
What people are confusing
and it's a false model.
00:10:04.57\00:10:09.77
The idea that the
press should be unbiased,
00:10:09.80\00:10:12.01
who says they never were.
00:10:12.04\00:10:14.04
Never. Well.
00:10:14.08\00:10:15.41
Yeah, but the point is
when you have a newspaper
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The media is not unbiased.
00:10:16.85\00:10:18.18
Yeah. Of course, but it's...
00:10:18.21\00:10:19.55
Nobody has a biblical viewpoint
and a prophetic understanding
00:10:19.58\00:10:22.65
that Adventist bring to it.
00:10:22.68\00:10:24.02
Well, but see, it's different
when you have a publication
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like what you've got.
00:10:26.09\00:10:27.92
Okay.
00:10:27.96\00:10:29.29
Of course, we've got,
00:10:29.32\00:10:30.66
but when you have the
idea of a big city newspaper.
00:10:30.69\00:10:33.43
You have idea, they're
going to present the news.
00:10:33.46\00:10:35.33
You've got the
editorial section,
00:10:35.36\00:10:37.23
you know, so on,
you got a magazine.
00:10:37.27\00:10:39.20
Like we said, the New Republic,
it was always left wing.
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That was fine.
00:10:42.10\00:10:43.44
Or Harper's is very left wing
or National Review right wing,
00:10:43.47\00:10:47.01
that's different,
00:10:47.04\00:10:48.38
Rush Limbaugh is
gonna be a right winger.
00:10:48.41\00:10:50.28
Okay. Yeah.
00:10:50.31\00:10:51.65
That's different.
00:10:51.68\00:10:53.01
But when you have
these news outlets
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that supposedly just
bringing you the news,
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you know, that mean,
00:10:58.62\00:10:59.95
we're a long way from CBS
News with Walter Cronkite,
00:10:59.99\00:11:03.76
a long way.
00:11:03.79\00:11:05.13
He might judge on
what's happening in,
00:11:05.16\00:11:06.49
with the news in
the US, I see it.
00:11:06.53\00:11:08.86
Right?
00:11:08.90\00:11:10.23
As you used to,
00:11:10.27\00:11:11.60
I go to a lot of
these events in Washington.
00:11:11.63\00:11:12.97
Sure.
00:11:13.00\00:11:14.34
And you go to
this political event
00:11:14.37\00:11:18.61
where there,
00:11:18.64\00:11:19.97
maybe ahead of
time, they've announced
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they're talking about some topic
00:11:21.38\00:11:22.98
or some initiative,
00:11:23.01\00:11:24.35
but whatever,
00:11:24.38\00:11:25.71
you know, I go there
00:11:25.75\00:11:27.08
and I see the
different stringers in that
00:11:27.12\00:11:28.48
for the different
papers and services come.
00:11:28.52\00:11:31.39
You go into the room, at
00:11:31.42\00:11:32.75
the door there's the
handout with the material.
00:11:32.79\00:11:36.32
And I'm telling you
nine times out of 10 anymore,
00:11:36.36\00:11:39.66
what you read in the newspaper
is that stuff repeated.
00:11:39.69\00:11:42.90
Yeah.
00:11:42.93\00:11:44.27
And the changes,
00:11:44.30\00:11:46.07
you know, to seize
on a date as good as any
00:11:46.10\00:11:50.91
probably around the
Clinton administration,
00:11:50.94\00:11:53.88
when there was a
reshuffling of the economy,
00:11:53.91\00:11:56.38
remember there was a period
where people lost their jobs,
00:11:56.41\00:11:59.05
got them back,
00:11:59.08\00:12:00.42
but they got
employed at a lower level.
00:12:00.45\00:12:03.28
Essentially people were
turned into service industries
00:12:03.32\00:12:06.09
and the news medias
dropped there like Reuters
00:12:06.12\00:12:10.19
and that became nothing.
00:12:10.23\00:12:11.79
They used to
have a lot of people
00:12:11.83\00:12:13.19
like in the Watergate era
00:12:13.23\00:12:15.13
where they could do
investigative journalism.
00:12:15.16\00:12:17.13
They don't do that anymore
00:12:17.17\00:12:18.50
because they
don't have the budget.
00:12:18.53\00:12:19.93
There's only a few people
00:12:19.97\00:12:21.30
and they take
what's given to them
00:12:21.34\00:12:23.20
either spew it back
00:12:23.24\00:12:25.01
or if they have
a deep seated bias,
00:12:25.04\00:12:26.57
they challenge it.
00:12:26.61\00:12:27.94
But there's not what
true media did investigate...
00:12:27.98\00:12:33.35
Like spotlight,
you remember spotlight.
00:12:33.38\00:12:35.55
Yes. That's not done anymore.
00:12:35.58\00:12:37.19
The superficiality,
00:12:37.22\00:12:39.35
that to me is more dangerous
00:12:39.39\00:12:41.56
than even erroneous information
or a biased viewpoint.
00:12:41.59\00:12:45.23
The news media has
gone wacko in this country.
00:12:45.26\00:12:49.10
And you've gotta be an idiot
00:12:49.13\00:12:50.93
to believe what
you see on the media.
00:12:50.97\00:12:52.40
But what's accomplished
in the last few years,
00:12:52.43\00:12:54.37
which I think is
deadly dangerous,
00:12:54.40\00:12:55.90
not just for religious liberty.
00:12:55.94\00:12:57.27
It's, religious liberty
00:12:57.31\00:12:58.64
is inextricably tied
up with civil liberties.
00:12:58.67\00:13:02.44
You can't separate the two,
00:13:02.48\00:13:03.88
but the media
attack is on civil liberty
00:13:03.91\00:13:06.05
and the information that
provides an open society.
00:13:06.08\00:13:09.08
So to cast doubts
00:13:09.12\00:13:10.55
for just a blanket
discrediting of the news media
00:13:10.59\00:13:15.99
is it is
dangerous to the extreme...
00:13:16.02\00:13:18.03
Well, they
deserve it, I'm sorry.
00:13:18.06\00:13:19.69
Well, they might deserve it,
but it's still very dangerous.
00:13:19.73\00:13:21.76
Well, I mean it's all we
got, we're stuck with it.
00:13:21.80\00:13:24.00
Fortunately, now in
the day of the internet,
00:13:24.03\00:13:26.13
there are other sources,
00:13:26.17\00:13:27.70
but how much of
them you could trust is,
00:13:27.74\00:13:30.51
you know, I don't know.
00:13:30.54\00:13:33.58
It's a scary time.
00:13:33.61\00:13:34.94
I know you've challenged me
00:13:34.98\00:13:36.31
before getting a
biblical analogy,
00:13:36.34\00:13:37.68
but, you know, the Bible says
00:13:37.71\00:13:39.05
my people perish
for lack of knowledge.
00:13:39.08\00:13:42.08
If you're not well-informed,
you can't make good decisions.
00:13:42.12\00:13:45.35
Well, democracies function
00:13:45.39\00:13:47.79
on the idea of a
well-informed public.
00:13:47.82\00:13:52.63
And unfortunately, I don't,
00:13:52.66\00:13:55.16
I read something
where 10 years ago,
00:13:55.20\00:13:58.20
or something, 67% of Americans,
00:13:58.23\00:14:02.90
when you have the word Holocaust
00:14:02.94\00:14:05.84
with a capital H,
00:14:05.87\00:14:07.21
60%, 67% of Americans
00:14:07.24\00:14:09.94
didn't know what
you were talking about.
00:14:09.98\00:14:12.11
Things like that get very scary.
00:14:12.15\00:14:13.85
And I doubt that it's been true
for the last administration,
00:14:13.88\00:14:16.35
but the statistics
00:14:16.38\00:14:17.72
have been pretty
consistent beyond that,
00:14:17.75\00:14:19.45
between elections.
00:14:19.49\00:14:20.82
I think it's only
about again the sixth.
00:14:20.86\00:14:22.76
I think it's 6% of Americans
can name the sitting president.
00:14:22.79\00:14:25.39
Wow. That's stifling.
00:14:25.43\00:14:26.76
How many?
00:14:26.80\00:14:28.13
It was only about six?
00:14:28.16\00:14:29.50
Very, very, single digit number.
00:14:29.53\00:14:31.50
We'll be back
after a short break,
00:14:31.53\00:14:32.87
stay with us.
00:14:32.90\00:14:34.24
Interesting discussion.
00:14:34.27\00:14:35.60