Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI200492A
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00:27 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:29 This is a program that's designed 00:31 to bring you up to speed on 00:33 religious liberty developments in the US and around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:40 and my special guest on this program, 00:42 Clifford Goldstein, a man of many hats. 00:45 One of them once was Liberty Magazine, 00:48 my predecessor and at present you're editing the... 00:52 We call them the Sabbath School Study Guides 00:55 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church, 00:56 which goes out globally. 00:58 Much bigger circulation than Liberty. 01:00 And you're printing in North America, 01:01 I think half a million, is it? Yeah, yeah. 01:03 It's very hard to get numbers for the whole world. 01:07 And then online, online a lot. Yeah. 01:10 Now I know with Liberty, and now with this job, 01:12 you have to deal with what every editor deals with, 01:15 criticism. 01:17 Yeah, well, yeah. 01:18 I want to talk a little bit about that. 01:21 When we put out important ideas, 01:23 it's to be expected that some people will resist, 01:26 some people may not read it at all, read them at all. 01:28 Other people will read and violently object, 01:31 other people agree. 01:32 And one of the greatest things of this job, 01:35 I found letters of concurrence. 01:38 And oh, you know, I love what you brought out. 01:40 People usually write them when they're mad. 01:42 I know. Yeah. 01:43 That's what I'm building to. I've gotten those. 01:44 But when you get, 01:46 one that they're ripping you up and down, 01:48 and you can see that they don't get it 01:49 and they're attacking you personally, 01:51 how do we deal with those things? 01:52 Well, I mean, I'm used to it. 01:55 And I'm not... 01:57 Well, the thing that gets me is... 02:00 the ones that really hurt. 02:03 The criticism is when you read it, 02:05 and you think, oh, my goodness, they're right. 02:08 I messed up, we messed up. 02:10 Well, if it's a technical mistake, yeah, 02:12 that's true or an error of judgment... 02:16 Yeah, because I'm dealing with a theology a lot. 02:18 Well, then the mistakes are very high, yeah. 02:20 And see a lot of it too, sometimes just stems from... 02:26 the weakness of language. 02:28 We have an idea and we express it 02:31 a certain way because we, 02:34 when I write something or edit something, 02:35 I know exactly what I mean. 02:38 Okay, and then sometimes, though, 02:40 other people read it and perceive it. 02:42 Wasn't from Alice in Wonderland, 02:44 when I say something, I mean, 02:45 exactly what I mean, not what you mean. 02:47 Yeah, and other people, they all bring our baggage in. 02:49 Yes. 02:50 That's why generally, it's always good 02:51 to have people read over your shoulder. 02:53 Well, and you have a reading committee. 02:55 Oh, I got people reading all of my stuff. 02:56 Because he has an editorial board and I run past, 02:59 stuff past them. 03:00 Even then things slip through. 03:02 Of course. Yeah. 03:03 But is that to be expected? 03:06 Is there a way to minimize it? 03:08 Or would it be a good sign if they were no objection? 03:11 No, they don't want something boring. 03:13 You know, one of the things with one of our predecessors 03:16 at Liberty Roland Hegstad, 03:18 Roland Halle said that 03:20 the essence of journalism is controversy. 03:24 You want stuff, now you don't want to be provocative, 03:28 just to be provocative. 03:29 You know, there's enough dissenting ideas... 03:32 That you want to stimulate the ideas, stimulate thoughts. 03:33 Yes, of course, of course, of course. 03:35 You're more, your publication, 03:38 my publication is, ideally, it's very conservative. 03:41 We're not here to bring in with my wacko ideas, 03:46 we're just sort of tow the party line kind of a thing. 03:49 And I'm fine with that. 03:51 That's what we're supposed to do. 03:53 But inevitably, inevitably, you broach on topics that 03:58 upset people and so on. 03:59 But yours was at Liberty. 04:01 It's a whole different ball of wax, yeah. 04:03 Well, we're, it's, you know, I've known in the long haul 04:07 and this is so and I've gotten some criticisms, less than... 04:12 You get some Jesuit, you're a Jesuit. 04:14 When I edited Liberty, people used to accuse me. 04:16 I've gotten that you were. I'm still... 04:19 You got into what? Did you... 04:20 I've gotten accusations that you would know. 04:23 You're a Jesuit. Oh, yeah, yeah. 04:25 I mean, wouldn't you think 04:26 these people would be nice for me, 04:27 to be a Roman Catholic first. 04:29 They're little payment rapture in your retirement. 04:31 Don't you think it'd be nice 04:32 if I had become a Roman Catholic 04:34 first, but oh, yeah. 04:35 So you hear that I'm a Jesuit, yeah, whatever. 04:37 Yeah, you know, not all, 04:38 lot of our viewers may understand 04:40 the Seventh-day Adventist Church, 04:42 we need to give some context. 04:44 The Seventh-day Adventist Church 04:45 is in the tradition of the Protestant Reformation, 04:48 put itself squarely there. 04:49 And it interprets a number of end-time events 04:53 placing the Roman Catholic Church 04:56 which is the continuation of the main Christian body 05:00 that corrupted early on in Imperial Rome. 05:04 And we believe that it will play a part 05:06 in coercive practices at the very end of time. 05:09 So, yes, to accuse someone of being 05:11 a Jesuit is to be working against 05:14 God's prophetic purposes of the end-time. 05:16 So got the worst change you could make. 05:17 You see, Jesuits are the wacky left-wing 05:21 extreme of the Roman Catholic Church now. 05:24 They're not the ones that Ignatius Loyola sent out 05:27 400 or 500 years ago. 05:29 They're a bunch of lefties, the Jesuits today. 05:31 Well, we'll see. 05:33 The Opus Dei, Opus Dei. 05:36 Now, that's a different story. Now, that is scary foe. 05:38 Is the pope Catholic or the pope is the Jesuit? 05:41 Yeah, yeah, and he's only lackey lefty, 05:43 you know, the Opus Dei. 05:46 Those are some scary foe. They're wacky too. 05:47 Well, you know, apart from the prophetic significance 05:50 that we talk about here, 05:52 there's no question that an all-belief systems, 05:55 whether it's a political party, 05:57 Republicans, Democrats in the US, 05:59 or churches, Adventists, Roman Catholic, 06:02 whatever, on the fringes can be some rather startling 06:06 subgroups that are not officially embraced, 06:08 but they're attracted to that core belief 06:11 and they have their own wackiness. 06:13 We have to deal with those people. 06:14 Yeah, well, you got it. 06:15 And they have a right to think that way. 06:17 They have a right to think that way. 06:18 But they can be very unpersuadable at times 06:22 and very aggressive 06:24 and almost violent in their attacks. 06:27 Conspiring people, the conspiracy... 06:29 Yeah, deal with these really wacko conspiracy people. 06:34 And it's impossible to talk to them. 06:37 I think you're part of that. 06:39 Well, you've got a little that in you. 06:41 Well, I've been accused of it, but what I believe is, 06:43 you know, I was a history major. 06:45 You look at history, and it's seldom 06:47 what the kindergarten textbook say. 06:49 And so you look beneath the surface 06:51 and you pull stuff together, but a conspiracy in the way 06:54 that most people mean it is an idea 06:56 you've cooked up with no evidence. 06:58 It's just an imaginary hidden agenda that you can't prove. 07:04 And sometimes I tell them, 07:05 hey, I have no doubt there're conspiracies out there 07:09 that you know nothing about, 07:11 these things you're chasing the red, 07:14 you make up the real ones, 07:16 you know, absolutely nothing, nothing about what was it? 07:20 You know, I was always remember being taught. 07:23 The Germans sank the innocent liner Lusitania. 07:29 Okay, and then I remember 07:31 that was an excuse to get into the war. 07:34 But then I remember about 30-40 years ago, 07:36 some news article came out and said that turned out 07:39 it was smuggling arms over to Europe. 07:42 You know, so no wonder the German sank it 07:44 but they never told you that. 07:46 So I don't know whether that's true. 07:47 Was that true? Were they smuggling arms? 07:49 Well, it wasn't smuggling. It was... 07:52 You don't put arms on a passenger's train. 07:54 Well, they did because they figured 07:55 that the Germans wouldn't attack it. 07:57 And, of course, it suited the plans for the allies 08:02 to cast the Germans as bad guys. 08:04 Yeah, you're right. 08:06 Nearly always, like, more recently, 08:07 the Gulf of Tonkin and this incident, 08:09 and like that's a whole different story. 08:12 They lie to us from beginning to end. 08:15 But within religion, 08:17 and religious activities and religious liberty, 08:20 some of these conspiracies 08:21 are just laughable on the face of them. 08:23 I know there's a video circulating 08:27 many Adventists I know, 08:28 what's this, the idea that 08:30 Islam was manufactured by the Roman Catholic Church. 08:33 I mean, that flies in the face of not only history, 08:37 historic events, the dynamic 08:39 where when Islam was moving into Eastern Europe, 08:42 to Western Europe, rather, 08:44 they were particularly instructed by the Khalif 08:47 to spare the People of the Book those that followed the Bible, 08:50 but kill without mercy those that war against you. 08:53 Roman Catholic phrase. 08:54 I mean, it was a sure a plan gotten wrong... 08:56 Yeah, I know, that's silly stuff. 08:58 So, you know... 08:59 but I could say feeble minds, but that's not right. 09:03 They might be more intelligent than me. 09:05 But impressionable 09:06 people that don't require evidence can... 09:09 We have that ample in politics as well. 09:12 You have that in politics. 09:13 And this is what I'm dealing 09:15 with at the moment with liberty. 09:16 And it's very problematic to me, 09:17 you know, I don't know quite 09:19 when this program will come out. 09:20 But it's roughly around the time 09:22 of a change of administration. 09:24 And politics is loaded. 09:26 And I know you know, you have your own 09:29 personal sympathies on the political thing, 09:31 and that's your right. 09:32 But I think anybody looking with some... 09:39 clarity on what the last four years brought to the US, 09:42 they were great danger signs on the democratic principle. 09:45 Arbitrary rule was sort of overtaking democracy, 09:49 regardless of whether good things were done. 09:52 And Liberty Magazine was... 09:54 generally very positive about the statements about 09:58 religious liberty on that administration. 10:00 They were great. 10:01 But some of the things that were done high handedly 10:04 on religious matters were quite problematic. 10:07 But we comment on it. That's what we're there for. 10:09 You comment on politics in this era at your peril, 10:13 Brother. 10:14 I ain't saying a word. 10:20 But like, I'll give you an example. 10:22 And you know, know about this. 10:26 Over the last four years, there have been an attempt, 10:28 I think it never actually came to pass to do away 10:31 with what was known as the Johnson Amendment. 10:33 You know, about the Johnson Amendment? 10:35 Oh, I vaguely remember. 10:36 Well, many moons ago when Lyndon Johnson, 10:41 he of the Vietnam War, and my fellow Americans, 10:44 I have a heavy heart, you remember that, right? 10:46 Yeah, very well. 10:48 Run out of the presidency because of his duplicity on 10:51 not being honest about the course of that war. 10:54 But he was a politician who believed in paying back. 10:59 And when he was running, 11:00 I think it was for the Senate at one point, 11:02 a number of church groups opposed him 11:04 as well as other political groups. 11:06 And he lumped them together as his enemies. 11:09 So he put an amendment on a bill 11:11 at that time that forbade 11:13 the churches from political activity, 11:18 really not a bad thing. 11:20 You and I would agree that churches, I think, 11:22 should stay out of politics, right? 11:24 Separation of church and state. 11:26 They're not to be political action groups, 11:29 but they should be free to have 11:31 opinions about things that take place in the political world. 11:35 And they should not be restricted by civil power. 11:39 So this was sort of a yin-yang thing done 11:42 from a bad reasoning. 11:45 But maybe a good thing is accomplished 11:47 to keep church and state separate. 11:50 The administration that came in four years ago, 11:53 influenced by the religious right, 11:54 who want political power. 11:56 Their agenda required removing the Johnson Amendment 12:00 so that they could function openly, 12:02 as direct political action groups 12:04 raise unlimited funds for political activity 12:09 and bring politicians in. 12:11 Was their second phase of doing that. 12:13 It used to be the Jones Bill. 12:15 Remember the Jones Bill? 12:16 The Jones Bill was a proposal as D. James Kennedy 12:20 long gone now, but I remember him saying, 12:22 and I met with him personally, we need to unbind the church. 12:25 Let us you know, speak politically. 12:28 So the Jones Bill was coming forward. 12:30 So, you know, we needed to criticize 12:33 their attempts to do away with the Jones Bill, 12:35 not harmful in itself. 12:37 But in doing away with it, we would be opening the gates 12:40 for political activity. 12:43 But the other day, 12:45 one of these friends of Liberty calls me up or emailed me, 12:48 but then he followed up with a phone call. 12:50 And he was going on and on about the wonderful things, 12:53 how dare we criticize anything that was done, 12:56 and he gave us exhibit A is a great thing, 12:59 getting rid of the Jones Bill. 13:00 Yeah, yeah. 13:01 Well, you know, 13:03 that's what your job is to educate people. 13:04 Yes. 13:05 That's what we try to educate people. 13:07 But it's hard to educate when they yell against you 13:08 and calling you a Jesuit 13:10 and all the rest are even questioning you. 13:12 Before we began, I don't envy you editing Liberty 13:15 in this political environment. 13:17 I mean, I remember when I edited Liberty, 13:20 we had a picture one time of... 13:23 and it was totally on religious liberty, 13:25 Bill Clinton walking on water. 13:27 Yeah. 13:29 I don't know why I did that. I should have known better. 13:33 Probably has the frame picture of that somewhere 13:35 next to the picture of him 13:36 lounging in a dress, you remember that scene. 13:38 Yeah, you got to remember that one but... 13:40 But no, but in a certain house of ill repute, 13:44 there was a painting of him. 13:46 Oh, yeah, the photo, the painting. 13:48 Yeah, oh, yeah, at Steed, at Steed, yeah. 13:51 So this would be a much more preferable picture. 13:53 Yeah, I agree, so. 13:56 That's just not part of the job. 13:57 But it is not our job to... 13:58 When you are a public figure and you do something like this, 14:02 you're going to get criticism. 14:04 It's just part of the job. 14:06 And in a democracy, 14:07 the public figures themselves need to be... 14:10 Well, they need to be criticized. 14:11 But I don't believe that it's given to anyone, 14:15 a citizen generally, nor a person of faith 14:18 or Liberty magazine to mock leaders, 14:21 even leaders that are doing the wrong thing. 14:23 We'll take a break. We're on a hot topic here. 14:25 So stay with us and we'll be back 14:27 to continue this discussion of how do you deal 14:30 with a restive readership or a viewership. |
Revised 2021-02-18