Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guest, Pati Lawrence,
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we were getting
into the real weeds
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of what the COVID
emergency might mean
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for religious
liberty in the world
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but particularly
in the United States.
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Let's get a more particular,
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not so much about COVID
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but what's happening now.
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In another program,
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we spoke about
Ruth Bader Ginsburg,
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recently passed.
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You and I had some involvement
in trying to invite her
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and get a letter
through to her to invite her,
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to speak at our liberty dinner.
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It couldn't work. She
was already quite ill.
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I think that was
what was really going on.
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You did receive a
response from her?
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There was some
response. It's good.
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And, you know, I
don't presume that
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every time you get
a letter from a person
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that they directly wrote it,
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even if it's
under their signature,
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I do have a letter
from President Clinton
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that I think he signed
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because my
contact was one of his...
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Well, not one of his,
his domestic policy advisor
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that was a good
friend from Little Rock,
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and her daughter and
Chelsea were at school together.
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So I think he
said in the letter,
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you know, I
hear from this woman,
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I wouldn't know, you
know, good things, and da, da...
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But even then you
don't really know.
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Right.
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But at least it
comes to you officially.
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But Ruth Bader
Ginsburg has died.
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And of course,
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there's a shakeup
on the Supreme court.
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What do you
think about all this?
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Talk about loading it
up with, in this case,
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conservatives versus liberals
and what their agenda might be,
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not just on abortion, on
defending religious liberty,
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they say it a lot, but
it often means a carve-out
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for a certain religious view,
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which is not
quite religious liberty.
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For me, it's an entitlement
for a religious viewpoint.
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Do you think this is important
or is it a storm in a teacup?
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I think it's important.
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I don't follow,
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and I should more follow
a lot more current events
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and listen to different opinions
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and different
facts, and I don't,
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but what I think
is going to happen is
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it is going to lean more
towards religious liberties
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for an entitled few.
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I really believe that.
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I think the Sabbath-keepers,
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and we're not the
only Sabbath-keeping church
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here in America.
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There's many faiths
that are Sabbath keepers.
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I've built a
wonderful relationship
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with Seventh Day Baptists.
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I know there are some,
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I believe they're
called ministries for Christ,
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and they're out there on Sundays
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asking for money
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at different markets and stores,
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and they're Sunday keepers.
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I think we may see restrictions
coming our way even more.
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I think we will,
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but will they come
from the Supreme court?
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That's the big question.
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Well, that is the
highest court in the land
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when decisions are made
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if a case has to go
to the Supreme court.
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Well, none of them have to,
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you know, what
happens is they work up
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through the appeals system
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till they get to
the highest court.
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Many...
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Well, I shouldn't say many
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but quite a few
cases make it there.
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And of the cases
that rise to that level,
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the court decides
which ones they'll take.
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They don't even look at all
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the ones that get to that level.
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So they choose them usually,
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as we choose
within our church to...
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We have limited resources
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and not every case
of Sabbath accommodation
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gets the full treatment.
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We decide which ones,
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not only a winnable
but which ones in winning,
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we might set a precedence.
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You know, that
there's a payoff beyond that
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the Supreme court looks at them
for the same reason, I think.
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It's not just to settle that
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some of them are
very obscure little cases,
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but the court often
sees that in settling that
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they establish
a larger principle
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or re-establish
a larger principle.
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But what I...
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What troubles me,
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and I listen to
a lot of the news
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and a lot of the
claims in this case,
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by conservatives, even
religious conservatives,
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they're operating
on a flawed assumption
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in my view.
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They assume the
judges can be found
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who are inherently biased.
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Now there are biased judges.
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But to make that
automatic assumption,
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I think is to
domain the justices
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whether they're
so-called conservatives
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or liberals,
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you want to get competent people
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who know the law
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and can analyze it and
arrive at the decision,
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and you have a
whole slew of them.
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And I have seen
almost no evidence
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that when they get on the court,
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they automatically reflexively
try to find an answer
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that answers their bias.
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So do you believe...
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So then I'm thinking
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because there's a lot of
talk that they're Catholic.
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A lot of them are Catholic.
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If they are
practicing devout Catholics,
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just as we use our moral values
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as a compass to
how we make decisions
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and or take a stand.
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So that's why I'm thinking
if they are devout Catholics
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or if they're...
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Not automatically a negative.
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You would hope
that as a Catholic
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or a evangelical
Christian or Jewish person
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that in a basic
morality would motivate them.
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But as a jurist
who trained in the law,
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they're supposed
to interpret the law
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and look at it on its own merits
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and human being
cannot quite divorce,
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their motivating
dynamic from that,
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but it's not chose...
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It's not supposed to be decided.
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And I don't even
see how it could be
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just on your reflex opinion.
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Like if you,
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as a Supreme court
judge wanted a Sunday law,
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you would then have to do
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what grade school
kids do in their papers.
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You would have to then
go cherry picking in the law
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to find something,
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to defend that
rather than research it
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and let the facts guide you.
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And I don't think
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they would
easily get away with it
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because they're
with other justices
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who are studying...
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They have huge law libraries
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where they go and
look at all the precedents
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and so on.
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And even if you wanted to,
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you'd have to
find the precedents,
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you would have to
find a decent legal basis
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to under good your
radical biased view.
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Like the other day did...
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Recently, I did a
program in religious liberty on
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and read one of my
editorials on stare decisis.
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I think, I don't even know
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if that's the
right pronunciation.
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It's a Latin term
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that the
judiciary have to follow.
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It's called established law.
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It's a Roman concept
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that you don't
lightly overturn that,
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which has been decided.
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And I know some of
these radical religionists
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at the moment
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and
conservatives have 120 cases.
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I've seen the number
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that they want
undone on the court.
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Not that easy
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if they were done correctly
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and with judicial
gravity at the time,
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just because you
disagree with it,
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you can't just
put your judges there
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and expect that they
will then unravel it.
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They have to get a
good legal reasoning.
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Well, let me ask you something.
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Okay, legal reasoning.
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But let's say the
Supreme court was made up
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the majority
Seventh-day Adventists.
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Okay.
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So and a case comes in
and this may be completely...
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'Cause I'm not that
versed in the Supreme court
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and how it works
in law and politics.
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I'm more than
mingler in the community
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that moves so to speak.
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So I'm coming at this
just completely as a layperson.
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But if the Supreme
court were made up of mostly.
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Seventh-day
Adventists and a court comes,
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I know for me, I
would first look at it.
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I mean, isn't that there's
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what belongs to
Caesar give to Caesar,
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what belongs to God give to God,
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our moral
compass, our moral values,
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would you choose
more on the side of law
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or on God's law?
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But, you know,
the people think that
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the justice has sit
there in a judicial seat
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and they raise their hand.
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Well, like the
Romans either up or down...
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That's how I
probably look at it.
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No, they have to do.
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They have law clerks.
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They have to find a
legal rationale for it.
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But they have...
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They do have the
last word to give.
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So if you were
as in Supreme court,
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would you look at...
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Well, there's no
question if the majority,
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which has been,
were Roman Catholic,
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or if they were Adventists,
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you could expect a
certain undercurrent
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that would bias
them toward that way.
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But they still
have to suspend that
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and it binds to the
legal responsibility.
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And they would
then have to play games
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with their research
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to say that why it should be.
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So it's not that easily done.
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And further, if
you look at the record,
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I'm surprised that
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the factions that keep putting
their magic person in there,
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they don't acknowledge it.
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There's not a very
strong correspondence
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between the faction
that puts someone on
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and what they expect them to do
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and what they follow through on.
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And the reason not
is because by and large,
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they are responsible judges.
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They follow the law.
00:08:45.69\00:08:47.02
I remember hearing
Justice Scalia, he's dead now,
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but I heard him in
person lecture a few times.
00:08:49.36\00:08:51.69
And he even said, he says,
00:08:51.73\00:08:53.16
you don't have to worry about me
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because he would
say radical stuff.
00:08:55.00\00:08:56.77
He says, I'm constrained
by my own responsibilities.
00:08:56.80\00:09:01.50
I have to follow
the law or precedent
00:09:01.54\00:09:03.34
and all this sort of stuff.
00:09:03.37\00:09:06.91
He had a position that
I think was a bit silly
00:09:06.94\00:09:09.44
but still held by
some as originalism
00:09:09.48\00:09:12.65
but often like someone
00:09:12.68\00:09:14.02
that tries to find
out the mind of Moses
00:09:14.05\00:09:18.05
when he transcribed the laws,
00:09:18.09\00:09:19.52
the little down, you
don't know the mind of Moses
00:09:19.55\00:09:22.72
other than what he said.
00:09:22.76\00:09:24.09
So it's sort of a
little bit of play-acting
00:09:24.13\00:09:26.29
or role-playing.
00:09:26.33\00:09:28.06
But beyond that, the
judges follow the law.
00:09:28.10\00:09:30.67
And I think it's
reassuring for the moment
00:09:30.70\00:09:33.50
when we get to
where the Supreme court
00:09:33.54\00:09:35.70
can be manipulated easily
00:09:35.74\00:09:37.77
and swung by affection
00:09:37.81\00:09:40.48
it's all over.
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The Bible says
at the end of time,
00:09:42.51\00:09:44.25
when a society
collapses, the judges corrupt...
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When the judges are
corrupt, there's no saving it.
00:09:47.82\00:09:50.92
It won't matter
who puts the judge.
00:09:50.95\00:09:52.29
You don't think
we're at that point now.
00:09:52.32\00:09:53.76
Not quite. Only because...
00:09:53.79\00:09:55.12
What is the danger is if
there was say a Sunday law,
00:09:55.16\00:09:59.39
which we are told will
come from people clamoring
00:09:59.43\00:10:01.43
to the legislators.
00:10:01.46\00:10:02.80
If you had a certain makeup,
say majority Roman Catholic,
00:10:02.83\00:10:06.80
and it's a law that corresponds
with what they hold personally,
00:10:06.84\00:10:10.97
I think they
might be more likely
00:10:11.01\00:10:12.74
to find a confirming ruling.
00:10:12.77\00:10:16.78
Exactly, and what about...
00:10:16.81\00:10:18.15
And remember,
they don't legislate
00:10:18.18\00:10:19.65
from the bench.
00:10:19.68\00:10:21.02
They cannot
legislate from the bench.
00:10:21.05\00:10:23.79
They can say that
legislation is unconstitutional
00:10:23.82\00:10:28.72
and they can thwart
things that come to them,
00:10:28.76\00:10:32.43
but they can't set new law.
00:10:32.46\00:10:34.06
It's impossible.
00:10:34.10\00:10:35.56
Now are you familiar
with, I'm sure you are,
00:10:35.60\00:10:37.17
here I'm asking you,
00:10:37.20\00:10:38.53
but the case with
the Walgreens employee,
00:10:38.57\00:10:42.00
Seventh-day Adventist,
00:10:42.04\00:10:43.47
he lost that case that
was in the Supreme court,
00:10:43.51\00:10:45.61
could it have been...
00:10:45.64\00:10:46.98
Well, there are so
many technicalities of play.
00:10:47.01\00:10:48.34
You don't think
the unfamiliarity
00:10:48.38\00:10:49.94
with Sabbath-keeping with...
00:10:49.98\00:10:52.61
But there were other issues.
00:10:52.65\00:10:55.22
And we need to
watch all of the courts.
00:10:55.25\00:10:58.65
And it's worth remembering that
00:10:58.69\00:11:00.96
this president
administration have appointed,
00:11:00.99\00:11:02.76
I think it's 5,000,
thousands of judges...
00:11:02.79\00:11:05.19
No, it's 500.
00:11:05.23\00:11:06.56
Anyhow, a mass of
judges on all of the levels,
00:11:06.59\00:11:09.73
as well as the Supreme court.
00:11:09.76\00:11:11.10
It's not just that level,
00:11:11.13\00:11:13.54
but we need to
be seeking justice.
00:11:13.57\00:11:15.04
Shouldn't we?
00:11:15.07\00:11:16.40
And it's good to
live in a country
00:11:16.44\00:11:17.77
where we have a
constitutional protection
00:11:17.81\00:11:19.77
for our freedoms.
00:11:19.81\00:11:21.14
And doing justice,
00:11:21.18\00:11:22.51
doing justice
out in the streets.
00:11:22.54\00:11:23.88
And, you know,
I've learned something
00:11:23.91\00:11:25.25
during this time
with you, Lincoln,
00:11:25.28\00:11:27.68
I do need to study more,
00:11:27.72\00:11:29.85
be more informed by
the news, which I'm not,
00:11:29.88\00:11:31.72
I don't watch regular news.
00:11:31.75\00:11:33.09
I'm sorry to say,
00:11:33.12\00:11:34.46
learn more about
our Supreme court
00:11:34.49\00:11:35.82
and how it works.
00:11:35.86\00:11:37.19
So I thank you this has been
very educational for me also.
00:11:37.23\00:11:40.56
And, yes, loving
mercy and doing justice,
00:11:40.60\00:11:43.33
we are commanded to do so.
00:11:43.37\00:11:44.73
We certainly live
in tumultuous times.
00:11:47.17\00:11:50.71
I think it could
easily be characterized
00:11:50.74\00:11:52.84
as many ages before us
00:11:52.87\00:11:55.64
as the age of
revolution and change,
00:11:55.68\00:11:59.75
not least of which
you could place COVID-19
00:11:59.78\00:12:03.28
as a disruptor on
the world, as we know it.
00:12:03.32\00:12:06.69
But it's worth remembering
00:12:06.72\00:12:08.06
that the time of
Jesus' life and ministry
00:12:08.09\00:12:10.86
was just as tumultuous.
00:12:10.89\00:12:12.89
It was a time of
Roman occupation,
00:12:12.93\00:12:16.03
the iron rule and
bloody administration
00:12:16.06\00:12:19.60
of the Roman empire
00:12:19.63\00:12:20.97
is not something
to be wished for.
00:12:21.00\00:12:24.11
And in a few years
00:12:24.14\00:12:25.47
after Jesus'
crucifixion and death,
00:12:25.51\00:12:29.24
there was the utter destruction
of the Jewish nation,
00:12:29.28\00:12:31.88
the destruction of Jerusalem,
00:12:31.91\00:12:33.55
where not one stone was
left upon another in the temple.
00:12:33.58\00:12:37.15
Therefore,
00:12:37.19\00:12:38.52
it's significant that
00:12:38.55\00:12:39.89
the Apostle Paul could say that,
00:12:39.92\00:12:42.12
"I have determined to
know nothing among you,
00:12:42.16\00:12:46.03
save Jesus Christ,
and Him crucified."
00:12:46.06\00:12:50.57
We need to cut to basics to
be aware of our surroundings
00:12:50.60\00:12:54.20
but to keep our eyes
00:12:54.24\00:12:55.70
on the
centrality of Jesus Christ.
00:12:55.74\00:12:59.41
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:59.44\00:13:01.88