Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI200491A
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00:27 Welcome to Liberty Insider.
00:29 This is the program designed to inform you, 00:32 get you thinking, and, analyze religious liberty in the US 00:37 and around the world. 00:38 My name is Lincoln Steed, Editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:42 and my guest on the program, Pati Lawrence. 00:44 Thank you. 00:46 An activist and a miracle worker 00:49 on behalf of the Lord for religious liberty. 00:51 Thank you. 00:52 You've taken the vision that many of us 00:55 have for religious liberty and put it into action. 00:58 We've had a number of programs already where you shared 01:01 some of these experiences that I hope in this too, 01:04 but let's put it on a global scale 01:06 where we're living right now 01:08 in the middle as we record this. 01:10 I'm sure we're not anywhere 01:11 near the end of the global pandemic with COVID-19. 01:16 It's changed the world in ways we still are finding out. 01:22 How do you think it affects religious liberty though? 01:26 You think this is an overall harm 01:29 or a help to religious liberty? 01:30 Is it presenting opportunities 01:32 or is it just putting us back in a box? 01:35 I think it is presented opportunities 01:37 because of Zoom, because of teleconferencing, 01:40 I may not be at our churches, 01:42 handing out brochures or speaking and saying, 01:44 "If you have a accommodation, if you need accommodation, 01:48 if you have a problem at work." 01:49 I'm not in person doing it, 01:51 but I am still doing it on Zoom. 01:53 And now those that do know me, "Oh, this... 01:56 Oh, that's Pati, yes, religious liberty." 01:58 They remember, they think about it. 02:00 Before COVID, every now and then 02:02 I would still receive a phone call and saying, 02:05 "Pati, can you help me up? 02:06 My job wants to change the rotation of the work. 02:08 They know I don't work on Saturday. 02:10 Now they're saying 02:11 I have to or I could lose my job." 02:14 And so I put them in contact with you, yeah. 02:15 Yes, people are, obviously for many reasons, 02:18 not least of which religious convictions, 02:19 their jobs are a little shaky. 02:21 There's not the job security as before. 02:24 But now because of COVID, I've heard some concerns also. 02:27 Well, our company closed down, 02:29 they're looking to open up again. 02:30 But are they going to not call me back to work 02:33 because they see that I'm on a limited schedule, 02:36 because I won't work on Saturday, 02:39 they may use COVID as an excuse to not bring them back to work. 02:42 And you got to what I was fishing for, 02:44 we look around the world, not just the US 02:46 and there is clearly a phenomenon of many countries, 02:50 not the US which were already causing 02:54 or creating religious liberty problems for some citizens, 02:57 minority religions, particularly. 03:00 And undercover or because of the COVID emergency 03:03 they're doubling down, becoming even more aggressive, 03:06 and China, Exhibit A that they were harassing 03:09 and imprisoning and torturing the Uyghur minority 03:14 because of their Islamic faith and perceived radicalism 03:17 which I'm sure it existed, but not the whole population. 03:21 And you know, many hundreds of thousands 03:24 are in detention camps and subject to whatever... 03:26 So they've doubled down during the COVID thing. 03:29 Of course, Christians are on the fringes 03:31 of legality unless they're part of the three self 03:34 totally government controlled movement, again persecuted. 03:37 We've seen that ratchet up. 03:39 But what about the US? 03:40 I've thought about this many times, 03:44 it seems to me, at least inadvertently, 03:47 the US has caused some religious problems 03:52 on these no meeting orders. 03:55 They've sort of shut down certain churches, I don't know, 03:58 I really can't see any forethought to it. 04:01 Other than perhaps in California, 04:04 there's an argument to be made that they don't think, 04:07 don't have great respect for religious faith versus, 04:10 you know, the worldly, scientific sort of modern man 04:13 approach and religion is a hangover 04:15 from the Dark Ages. 04:16 So it's not got great respect. 04:20 But I don't, I can't make a case 04:22 that there's over persecution of religion in the US, 04:25 but it's happening regardless. 04:28 I've heard different schools of thought, 04:30 I've heard some members say, "We should be open, 04:32 they should allow us in. 04:33 We'll be careful, we'll take precaution." 04:36 Then on the other hand, I've heard, 04:38 "You know, but it is about health. 04:40 It is about being safe, 04:42 and not affecting other people." 04:43 You know, what if I was responsible 04:44 for someone else being sick 04:47 because we were in an enclosed area. 04:50 But I think we've all learned enough to wear the masks, 04:52 wash our hands, keep distance and God is important 04:56 and if anything, for example, my church in Long Beach. 04:59 We have vespers on Friday evenings at 7 pm. 05:03 And then on Sabbath at 4 pm 05:05 to not keep our church closed down, 05:07 but we're in the parking lot. 05:09 We're outside distanced in the parking lot 05:12 and it's been a wonderful gathering, 05:13 and we can fellowship together again. 05:15 So I think if you can't open the churches 05:17 and go inside and worship, there's other alternatives. 05:21 It was certainly good to talk to people even though, 05:24 well, not even though especially 05:26 since it was outdoors, breezy. 05:28 People well spaced, a nice shade canopy 05:31 and others tucked away in little picnic corners. 05:34 To me it had a Sunday afternoon, 05:36 well not Sunday, Saturday afternoon in the park field. 05:39 But I didn't notice all of them. 05:42 But you remarked on some of the comments 05:45 that followed about the sermon, that was gratifying. 05:47 And first I want to say 05:48 there's an example of a creative way 05:50 to fellowship without having the church open. 05:52 It's outdoors, but it's open. 05:54 I think if more churches did maybe thought 05:56 a little more creatively, 05:57 they would have that experience also. 05:59 I did, I looked at the comments 06:00 that were made on your sermon that day, 06:02 and one especially jumped out at me, 06:04 because of being involved in religious liberty. 06:06 And this was could have been, and may be still, 06:09 maybe I should reach out to her, 06:10 could be still a request, 06:12 or she may have a request for an accommodation. 06:14 She's a college student, 06:16 I believe she's a college student, 06:17 and she says, "Thank you, Pastor Steed, for your message. 06:20 I was struggling this week, 06:22 because my school set the due date of homework for Saturday. 06:27 But because they want us to worship on Sunday, 06:29 like they do, but thank you. 06:32 I was reassured to keep the Sabbath. 06:35 God is always more important than grades." 06:38 So she chose to not do her homework. 06:41 She was late on her homework to be there, 06:44 and then heard your sermon and felt reassured. 06:48 This may be a request for accommodation later on. 06:51 Well, maybe the next week, 06:52 she'll get it done by Friday and turn-in, right? 06:56 There's usually no penalty for early turn-ins. 06:58 Also, this is another example how you just don't know 07:01 when you're going to plant that seed. 07:02 You don't know. 07:03 You don't know where you're going to be at that moment 07:05 when someone needs you to be there. 07:07 Yeah. 07:08 And that's the reward of teaching 07:10 religious liberty of preaching it. 07:12 The other side is there seems to be as the Bible 07:15 keeps saying, you know, 07:16 "Do you hear not, do you see not?" 07:18 You know what, you know, God says, 07:19 "How do I get through to you people? 07:21 I sometimes feel it. 07:22 But that's not really for us to get too worried about, 07:25 I think global leaders. 07:26 But what you were saying about White Memorial, 07:29 it was nicely set up, but it's worth remembering 07:31 that that was not allowed 07:33 to many churches for a long time. 07:34 They were not allowed to even in a number of cases 07:37 to even have a drive-thru church, 07:40 where they sat in their cars and looked at the screen 07:44 or heard of, you know, broadcast. 07:47 That's bizarre. 07:48 There was no case to be made whatsoever 07:51 for contagion in that situation. 07:54 And again, I don't see forethought, 07:56 but I see an easy dismissal of the religious conscience 08:01 rights of people in such prohibitions. 08:04 So it needs a little thinking about, 08:07 even in a country as this administration 08:10 has speak loudly and constantly of religious freedom. 08:14 Talk is cheap. 08:16 It's in the, the proof is in the pudding 08:19 to mix not metaphors, but cliches. 08:22 Well, and I think too at the beginning of this, 08:24 we didn't really and maybe still 08:25 we really don't know much about COVID. 08:27 No, it's uncharted territory. 08:28 Experts don't know. 08:29 So if someone is elderly or has an underlying condition, 08:32 then, of course, stay home. 08:34 Don't go out to a parking lot or a church outdoor. 08:38 It's up to them to make the decision. 08:40 But I know I missed fellowshipping in person. 08:42 I do, I miss, I miss it. 08:45 But again, let's talk about the world under COVID. 08:49 China's restricting under... 08:52 Well, not so much undercover, 08:53 but they're not getting into so much trouble 08:55 for the continued or even increased 08:58 harassment of Christians, Muslim Uyghurs and so on. 09:02 And we've seen that in many other countries, 09:04 the Middle East. 09:07 You don't hear about it much in the US anymore, 09:09 but the religious purging continues. 09:13 Christians are being persecuted by all factions 09:16 in the Middle East conflict. 09:21 In India, I know there's been 09:23 increased violence against Christians. 09:27 They're sociological reasons. 09:30 Christians are turning the Untouchables 09:33 in particular are turning to Christianity is a way 09:35 to escape the repression of their caste system. 09:39 But India is suffering under COVID. 09:41 And again, sweeping these, 09:44 these religious issues to the side. 09:46 You know, when I was in the airport 09:47 coming out here, I had over a stay, 09:49 a layover in Salt Lake City. 09:51 And I'm standing around, there's a gentleman there. 09:53 And he says, you know, I just guess he's an American. 09:56 He was going home. 09:57 He says, "I just came from Taiwan. 09:59 He said, People, most people wear masks out in public. 10:02 A lot of them don't. 10:03 There's no COVID going on there. 10:04 No one's fearing, no one's closing down. 10:06 Everything is open and running, 10:08 as usual except for maybe a mask or two." 10:11 This is in Taiwan. 10:12 He says, "It's very relaxed and there's no issues with... 10:14 There's a handful of cases. 10:16 Yeah, a handful of cases. 10:17 And yet, nothing is closed down. 10:20 Schools, churches, businesses, everything was open. 10:23 Well, it's hard to know, I mean... 10:26 The best I can come up with, you know, 10:27 viruses waft on the wind or spread through hotspots 10:30 and you don't know the way it's spread, 10:33 but I feel that we're very vulnerable in the US, 10:36 in the West, perhaps. 10:38 We don't have a tradition like 10:39 they do in Asia of wearing masks, 10:41 the best of times they wear them 10:43 when someone has a cold, they wear a mask. 10:44 Beyond that, we have a health system 10:47 that we're constantly touting, 10:48 but it is not designed for the average citizen. 10:50 If you have the money, you get good service, 10:52 if not, not much. 10:54 So it's not good to respond to an overall thing. 10:58 Very unhealthy population supported by medicinal backup, 11:01 but there's a huge amount of obese people, 11:04 a huge amount of diabetics and on and on. 11:08 So we are actually very vulnerable 11:10 and an older population, 11:12 like Japan, interestingly enough, 11:13 but an older population that's more vulnerable 11:16 for in their own immune system dropping away 11:18 plus other health issues. 11:20 Fauci... 11:21 We're getting off religious liberty, 11:23 but Fauci mentioned recently that I think only 6% of people 11:26 die from COVID alone. 11:28 There are always co-morbidities otherwise. 11:31 Doesn't mean the COVID didn't kill them, 11:34 but without the co-morbidity 11:36 they might not have died then of that disease. 11:39 So it's a great stress on the world 11:41 and religious liberty is one of the casualties, 11:43 at least in my view. 11:45 I agree. 11:47 And we must be vigilant 11:48 when it comes to our religious liberty rights. 11:49 And what I often say when I'm out in the public 11:52 and even with elected officials, 11:54 I say that this is a God given human right. 11:56 This is for everyone, believers or non-believers, and 12:00 no man, no person, and no government 12:03 should come between us and our conscience. 12:05 Absolutely. 12:06 And this is how the US government sees it. 12:08 You know, some people Adventists thinking 12:11 that they want Sabbath accommodation, 12:13 they think that or they're told by their employer, 12:15 and you know, well, 12:16 you can get a letter from your church, 12:17 letting you off the hook or whatever, that's irrelevant. 12:20 The church can believe something totally different. 12:22 But if you are convicted on that point, 12:24 it should be honored. 12:26 And that's, I think that's wonderful. 12:28 And it does underscore I think the separation of church 12:32 and state of the US, they're not concerned 12:33 about church dogma, 12:35 they are concerned about the individual, 12:36 their rights, their conscience. 12:38 It's a human right. 12:39 Yeah. 12:41 But there's no question that in a COVID panic era, 12:45 one of the casualties 12:47 or at least the threatened casualties 12:49 is religious liberty. 12:51 Stay with us. 12:52 We'll be back after a short break 12:54 to continue this discussion. |
Revised 2021-02-11