Welcome to Liberty Insider.
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This is the program
designed to inform you,
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get you thinking, and, analyze
religious liberty in the US
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine,
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and my guest on the
program, Pati Lawrence.
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Thank you.
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An activist and a miracle worker
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on behalf of the Lord
for religious liberty.
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Thank you.
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You've taken the
vision that many of us
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have for religious
liberty and put it into action.
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We've had a number of programs
already where you shared
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some of these experiences
that I hope in this too,
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but let's put it
on a global scale
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where we're living right now
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in the middle as we record this.
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I'm sure we're not anywhere
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near the end of the
global pandemic with COVID-19.
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It's changed the world in
ways we still are finding out.
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How do you think it affects
religious liberty though?
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You think this
is an overall harm
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or a help to religious liberty?
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Is it presenting opportunities
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or is it just
putting us back in a box?
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I think it is
presented opportunities
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because of Zoom,
because of teleconferencing,
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I may not be at our churches,
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handing out brochures
or speaking and saying,
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"If you have a accommodation,
if you need accommodation,
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if you have a problem at work."
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I'm not in person doing it,
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but I am still doing it on Zoom.
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And now those that
do know me, "Oh, this...
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Oh, that's Pati,
yes, religious liberty."
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They remember,
they think about it.
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Before COVID, every now and then
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I would still receive
a phone call and saying,
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"Pati, can you help me up?
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My job wants to change
the rotation of the work.
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They know I
don't work on Saturday.
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Now they're saying
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I have to or I
could lose my job."
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And so I put them in
contact with you, yeah.
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Yes, people are,
obviously for many reasons,
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not least of which
religious convictions,
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their jobs are a little shaky.
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There's not the
job security as before.
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But now because of COVID,
I've heard some concerns also.
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Well, our company closed down,
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they're looking
to open up again.
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But are they going to
not call me back to work
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because they see that
I'm on a limited schedule,
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because I won't
work on Saturday,
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they may use COVID as an excuse
to not bring them back to work.
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And you got to
what I was fishing for,
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we look around the
world, not just the US
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and there is clearly a
phenomenon of many countries,
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not the US which
were already causing
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or creating religious liberty
problems for some citizens,
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minority
religions, particularly.
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And undercover or
because of the COVID emergency
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they're doubling down,
becoming even more aggressive,
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and China, Exhibit A
that they were harassing
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and imprisoning and
torturing the Uyghur minority
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because of their Islamic
faith and perceived radicalism
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which I'm sure it existed,
but not the whole population.
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And you know, many
hundreds of thousands
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are in detention camps
and subject to whatever...
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So they've doubled
down during the COVID thing.
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Of course,
Christians are on the fringes
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of legality unless
they're part of the three self
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totally government controlled
movement, again persecuted.
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We've seen that ratchet up.
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But what about the US?
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I've thought
about this many times,
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it seems to me, at
least inadvertently,
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the US has caused
some religious problems
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on these no meeting orders.
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They've sort of shut down
certain churches, I don't know,
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I really can't see
any forethought to it.
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Other than
perhaps in California,
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there's an argument to be
made that they don't think,
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don't have great respect
for religious faith versus,
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you know, the worldly,
scientific sort of modern man
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approach and
religion is a hangover
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from the Dark Ages.
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So it's not got great respect.
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But I don't, I can't make a case
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that there's over persecution
of religion in the US,
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but it's happening regardless.
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I've heard
different schools of thought,
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I've heard some members
say, "We should be open,
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they should allow us in.
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We'll be careful,
we'll take precaution."
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Then on the
other hand, I've heard,
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"You know, but
it is about health.
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It is about being safe,
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and not affecting other people."
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You know, what
if I was responsible
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for someone else being sick
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because we were
in an enclosed area.
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But I think we've all learned
enough to wear the masks,
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wash our hands, keep
distance and God is important
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and if anything, for example,
my church in Long Beach.
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We have vespers on
Friday evenings at 7 pm.
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And then on Sabbath at 4 pm
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to not keep our
church closed down,
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but we're in the parking lot.
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We're outside
distanced in the parking lot
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and it's been a
wonderful gathering,
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and we can
fellowship together again.
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So I think if you
can't open the churches
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and go inside and worship,
there's other alternatives.
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It was certainly good to
talk to people even though,
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well, not even though especially
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since it was outdoors, breezy.
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People well
spaced, a nice shade canopy
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and others tucked away
in little picnic corners.
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To me it had a Sunday afternoon,
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well not Sunday, Saturday
afternoon in the park field.
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But I didn't notice all of them.
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But you remarked on
some of the comments
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that followed about the
sermon, that was gratifying.
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And first I want to say
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there's an
example of a creative way
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to fellowship without
having the church open.
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It's outdoors, but it's open.
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I think if more
churches did maybe thought
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a little more creatively,
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they would have
that experience also.
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I did, I looked at the comments
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that were made on
your sermon that day,
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and one
especially jumped out at me,
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because of being
involved in religious liberty.
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And this was could
have been, and may be still,
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maybe I should reach out to her,
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could be still a request,
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or she may have a
request for an accommodation.
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She's a college student,
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I believe she's
a college student,
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and she says, "Thank you,
Pastor Steed, for your message.
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I was struggling this week,
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because my school set the due
date of homework for Saturday.
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But because they want
us to worship on Sunday,
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like they do, but thank you.
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I was reassured
to keep the Sabbath.
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God is always more
important than grades."
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So she chose to
not do her homework.
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She was late on her
homework to be there,
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and then heard your
sermon and felt reassured.
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This may be a request
for accommodation later on.
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Well, maybe the next week,
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she'll get it done by
Friday and turn-in, right?
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There's usually no
penalty for early turn-ins.
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Also, this is another
example how you just don't know
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when you're going
to plant that seed.
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You don't know.
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You don't know where you're
going to be at that moment
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when someone
needs you to be there.
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Yeah.
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And that's the
reward of teaching
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religious
liberty of preaching it.
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The other side is there
seems to be as the Bible
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keeps saying, you know,
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"Do you hear
not, do you see not?"
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You know what,
you know, God says,
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"How do I get
through to you people?
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I sometimes feel it.
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But that's not really for
us to get too worried about,
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I think global leaders.
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But what you were
saying about White Memorial,
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it was nicely set up,
but it's worth remembering
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that that was not allowed
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to many
churches for a long time.
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They were not allowed to
even in a number of cases
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to even have a
drive-thru church,
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where they sat in their
cars and looked at the screen
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or heard of,
you know, broadcast.
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That's bizarre.
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There was no case
to be made whatsoever
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for contagion in that situation.
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And again, I
don't see forethought,
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but I see an easy dismissal
of the religious conscience
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rights of people
in such prohibitions.
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So it needs a
little thinking about,
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even in a country
as this administration
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has speak loudly and
constantly of religious freedom.
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Talk is cheap.
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It's in the, the
proof is in the pudding
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to mix not
metaphors, but cliches.
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Well, and I think too
at the beginning of this,
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we didn't really and maybe still
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we really don't
know much about COVID.
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No, it's uncharted territory.
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Experts don't know.
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So if someone is elderly or
has an underlying condition,
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then, of course, stay home.
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Don't go out to a
parking lot or a church outdoor.
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It's up to them
to make the decision.
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But I know I missed
fellowshipping in person.
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I do, I miss, I miss it.
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But again, let's talk
about the world under COVID.
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China's restricting under...
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Well, not so much undercover,
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but they're not
getting into so much trouble
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for the
continued or even increased
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harassment of Christians,
Muslim Uyghurs and so on.
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And we've seen that
in many other countries,
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the Middle East.
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You don't hear about
it much in the US anymore,
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but the religious
purging continues.
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Christians are being
persecuted by all factions
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in the Middle East conflict.
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In India, I know there's been
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increased violence
against Christians.
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They're sociological reasons.
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Christians are
turning the Untouchables
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in particular are
turning to Christianity is a way
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to escape the repression
of their caste system.
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But India is
suffering under COVID.
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And again, sweeping these,
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these religious
issues to the side.
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You know, when I
was in the airport
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coming out here,
I had over a stay,
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a layover in Salt Lake City.
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And I'm standing around,
there's a gentleman there.
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And he says, you know, I
just guess he's an American.
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He was going home.
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He says, "I just
came from Taiwan.
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He said, People, most
people wear masks out in public.
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A lot of them don't.
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There's no COVID going on there.
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No one's fearing,
no one's closing down.
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Everything is open and running,
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as usual except for
maybe a mask or two."
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This is in Taiwan.
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He says, "It's very relaxed
and there's no issues with...
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There's a handful of cases.
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Yeah, a handful of cases.
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And yet, nothing is closed down.
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Schools, churches,
businesses, everything was open.
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Well, it's hard
to know, I mean...
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The best I can
come up with, you know,
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viruses waft on the wind
or spread through hotspots
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and you don't know
the way it's spread,
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but I feel that we're
very vulnerable in the US,
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in the West, perhaps.
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We don't have a tradition like
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they do in Asia
of wearing masks,
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the best of times they wear them
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when someone has a
cold, they wear a mask.
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Beyond that, we
have a health system
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that we're constantly touting,
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but it is not designed
for the average citizen.
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If you have the
money, you get good service,
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if not, not much.
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So it's not good to
respond to an overall thing.
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Very unhealthy population
supported by medicinal backup,
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but there's a huge
amount of obese people,
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a huge amount of
diabetics and on and on.
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So we are
actually very vulnerable
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and an older population,
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like Japan,
interestingly enough,
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but an older population
that's more vulnerable
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for in their own
immune system dropping away
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plus other health issues.
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Fauci...
00:11:20.41\00:11:21.74
We're getting off
religious liberty,
00:11:21.78\00:11:23.11
but Fauci mentioned recently
that I think only 6% of people
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die from COVID alone.
00:11:26.92\00:11:28.25
There are always
co-morbidities otherwise.
00:11:28.28\00:11:30.32
Doesn't mean the
COVID didn't kill them,
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but without the co-morbidity
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they might not have
died then of that disease.
00:11:36.16\00:11:38.99
So it's a great
stress on the world
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and religious liberty
is one of the casualties,
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at least in my view.
00:11:43.90\00:11:45.70
I agree.
00:11:45.73\00:11:47.07
And we must be vigilant
00:11:47.10\00:11:48.44
when it comes to our
religious liberty rights.
00:11:48.47\00:11:49.80
And what I often say
when I'm out in the public
00:11:49.84\00:11:52.17
and even with elected officials,
00:11:52.21\00:11:54.28
I say that this is a
God given human right.
00:11:54.31\00:11:56.64
This is for everyone,
believers or non-believers, and
00:11:56.68\00:12:00.38
no man, no
person, and no government
00:12:00.42\00:12:03.59
should come between
us and our conscience.
00:12:03.62\00:12:05.09
Absolutely.
00:12:05.12\00:12:06.45
And this is how the
US government sees it.
00:12:06.49\00:12:08.82
You know, some
people Adventists thinking
00:12:08.86\00:12:11.53
that they want
Sabbath accommodation,
00:12:11.56\00:12:13.40
they think that or
they're told by their employer,
00:12:13.43\00:12:15.20
and you know, well,
00:12:15.23\00:12:16.56
you can get a
letter from your church,
00:12:16.60\00:12:17.93
letting you off the hook or
whatever, that's irrelevant.
00:12:17.97\00:12:20.44
The church can believe
something totally different.
00:12:20.47\00:12:22.40
But if you are
convicted on that point,
00:12:22.44\00:12:24.17
it should be honored.
00:12:24.21\00:12:25.54
And that's, I
think that's wonderful.
00:12:26.61\00:12:28.74
And it does underscore I
think the separation of church
00:12:28.78\00:12:32.08
and state of the US,
they're not concerned
00:12:32.11\00:12:33.72
about church dogma,
00:12:33.75\00:12:35.08
they are concerned
about the individual,
00:12:35.12\00:12:36.79
their rights, their conscience.
00:12:36.82\00:12:38.52
It's a human right.
00:12:38.55\00:12:39.89
Yeah.
00:12:39.92\00:12:41.26
But there's no question
that in a COVID panic era,
00:12:41.29\00:12:45.89
one of the casualties
00:12:45.93\00:12:47.26
or at least the
threatened casualties
00:12:47.30\00:12:49.86
is religious liberty.
00:12:49.90\00:12:51.23
Stay with us.
00:12:51.27\00:12:52.60
We'll be back
after a short break
00:12:52.63\00:12:53.97
to continue this discussion.
00:12:54.00\00:12:55.34