Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI200478A
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00:28 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:30 This is a program designed to inform you 00:33 and indeed energize you on religious liberty concerns 00:37 in the US and around the world. 00:39 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:43 a religious liberty journal that's been around since 1905. 00:48 It's the longest published journal 00:51 of its type 00:52 and the largest circulated in existence. 00:57 I want to talk to you personally 00:58 on the program today. 01:00 No guest, but a strong message 01:02 and tell you about something 01:04 that was a great influence on my life. 01:08 As I said at the beginning of the program, 01:10 religious liberty, 01:11 for those of us living in the US is an easy, 01:14 relatively easy topic, 01:15 because the Constitution 01:17 and indeed the early history of the US, 01:19 much of it centered around civil 01:21 and religious freedom. 01:23 And the Constitution still retains high aspirations 01:26 in that regard. 01:28 But, you know, when you go worldwide, 01:31 and from a Christian perspective, 01:33 you know, things can get rough and rocky. 01:36 I come from Australia originally. 01:38 So that gives me I think 01:39 a little bit of a broader perspective. 01:41 Certainly, I'm always looking across the oceans 01:43 and thinking what it is in another country. 01:46 But years ago when I was younger, 01:49 and trying to sort out where I fit it in all of this 01:53 and as a newly energized Christian, 01:56 even though 01:57 I'm a fourth generation Seventh-day Adventist, 01:59 I've had a life crisis 02:00 and I was going to say rededicated my life 02:04 but that's wrong, dedicated my life 02:06 truly for the first time to spreading the good news. 02:11 It's used to exercise me, how do we witness? 02:14 What can we do to pass on and pass on the message? 02:19 And I came across a book 02:22 written quite some years earlier 02:24 by a missionary from the US, 02:27 although he had strong Anglo English connections, 02:30 a missionary from the US to India, 02:33 and anyone that's been to India and those from India 02:36 know very well next to China. 02:38 This is the most populous nation 02:40 on the earth. 02:42 It's overwhelming to go visit there 02:44 and to see the teeming masses of humanity 02:46 especially in cities like Calcutta, 02:49 and so on with the, 02:53 you know, the density is large to see beggars, 02:56 to see people living in such close proximity, 02:58 the hustle and bustle and the mita do 03:02 is particularly informed by religion, the relative, 03:04 seemingly relative lack of value of human life. 03:09 It's overwhelming. 03:11 That's all I can say. 03:12 So I found the book written by Stanley Jones, 03:16 a missionary to India. 03:18 And as I read the book, it moved me. 03:21 And as I read his story, 03:23 it moved me because he went there 03:24 with high ideals to change that country 03:28 and move it toward Christianity. 03:32 I think he's on his ministry 03:34 he spent something like nine years 03:36 with not a single convert. 03:39 I don't know who could stick that out. 03:42 But he did 03:43 at the cost of his peace of mind 03:46 and just normal functioning, had a total breakdown, 03:50 physical and mental 03:51 and left literally with his tail 03:54 between his legs back to the US 03:57 to recover which he did 03:59 and he thought and thought, "What am I doing wrong? 04:02 Why cannot I communicate, 04:06 you know, my compulsion to share Jesus 04:08 and what He has to offer? 04:09 Why can I communicate it to this country of Hindus? 04:12 You know, many, many, many gods, 04:15 and quite a number of Muslims, 04:17 supposedly the One God 04:19 but it's not described the same way 04:21 as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, 04:23 although there's a claim to be that same God 04:26 through Ishmael instead of Isaac, 04:29 and then other religions, Jains and so on, 04:32 and the Sikhs, made no progress. 04:37 So he went back to India and used to have lectures 04:39 where he tried an intellectual approach, 04:42 a logical approach to spreading Christianity 04:46 and he was at one meeting, as he recounts in his book, 04:50 where he was working with these educated Brahmins, 04:54 giving them a logic of Christianity 04:56 and what Christ had to offer 04:57 and one of the Brahmins said to him, he says, 05:00 "I don't like the God of your Western Jesus 05:04 and the God of your Christianity. 05:06 He's not a God for us Indians. 05:07 I don't like what He has to offer." 05:10 And Stanley Jones thought for a minute, 05:12 he says, and, you know, quickly regrouped. 05:15 And then he began to describe a Jesus Christ 05:19 walking on the roads of India, 05:21 the dusty roads, the back roads, 05:23 not just in the big cities, 05:24 but what is like in the back blocks, 05:25 because that's a real country. 05:27 I can tell you, the US is not New York, 05:29 it's not Los Angeles. 05:32 You go out into flyover country 05:33 where in reality where we are broadcasting from, 05:36 that's more particularly 05:38 what the United States is same in India. 05:41 And he described Jesus walking on those dusty roads 05:45 with the teeming masses, 05:47 the beggars by the road and so on, 05:49 Him looking like a sadhu or Hindu holy man, 05:53 helping people healing people, 05:56 reaching out to his fellow humanity. 05:59 And after he finished, the Brahmin thought of it, 06:02 and he says, Yes, he says, 06:04 "I think I could learn to love 06:06 and serve the Christ of the Indian road." 06:10 And that was the beginning of a powerful ministry 06:13 of Stanley Jones, 06:15 because he really integrated what Christ had to offer 06:19 with where humanity was. 06:21 And it became an internationalist, 06:23 a humanitarian ministry not just as can easily happen, 06:29 you know, an outreach 06:31 of Western Christian civilization 06:33 which has emerged in many ways 06:35 as it is in the US with culture and not just theology, 06:41 he was very successful. 06:42 What then caught my attention was I read one of his books 06:47 where he had conversations with different Indian figures. 06:51 And he came in contact with Mahatma Gandhi. 06:56 And I'm thinking a lot of Gandhi lately 06:58 because the US is in a tough, 07:03 of time of turmoil 07:05 in the midst of the social distancing 07:07 of COVID-19. 07:08 We've rather paradoxically got people 07:11 who are crowding together in the cities 07:14 and demonstrating and fighting with the police 07:16 over very real concerns, 07:18 of course, sparked in particular 07:20 by police violence, 07:22 that's always characterized the US law enforcement 07:25 which still as, you know, 07:26 the western gunslinger approach, 07:29 as well as the plantation law and order 07:32 and the Fugitive Slave Act sort of mentality. 07:35 It's a heady mix, 07:36 that while we've improved in many ways, 07:39 there's the shadow of those ways still with us. 07:42 And I've thought of that, 07:44 where people are demonstrating 07:45 for a great humanitarian concern, 07:47 I call it the civil rights movement v2. 07:52 It's like an update, 07:53 and I hope good things come of it, 07:56 other than some destruction of property 07:58 which is always regrettable, but that's the fringe, 08:01 and that easily discredited side 08:03 of what I think is an optimistic engagement 08:06 with the problem that needs to be solved. 08:08 And I thought of Mahatma Gandhi, 08:10 you know, he spearheaded a populist movement in India, 08:16 which was ruled by England, 08:17 which at that time 08:19 had a quarter of the world's population 08:20 under their Imperial Ensign 08:22 collapsed with World War II, 08:24 but at that time, they were strong 08:25 and coming up to the point of independence. 08:32 Gandhi was a moderating force because he embraced, 08:35 what you could say was a Christian value, 08:37 but he was not a Christian. 08:39 He embraced total non-violence, 08:42 and he wanted an independent India. 08:44 He ironically wanted 08:46 a totality of Hindus and Muslims and so on. 08:49 And it was his 08:50 personal disillusionment and failure 08:52 that led to the separation of India 08:54 and Pakistan along religious lines. 08:57 But Gandhi was very successful 08:59 in opposing the top empire 09:01 of the time in a non-violent way. 09:04 What else could he have done if you think about it? 09:06 If they've chosen to use the overwhelming force 09:09 of the British Empire, 09:11 they could have squashed his movement, 09:13 but he refused to act violently 09:15 and inspire the great movement that led to independence. 09:19 And ironically, 09:20 very few people seem to have remembered it. 09:23 Gandhi was the lawyer from South Africa an Indian, 09:27 ethnic Indian, 09:28 but he was a lawyer from South Africa, 09:29 where he grown up under apartheid. 09:32 So he knew the great racial abuses 09:35 of a white dominated society there 09:38 but again, that's where he developed 09:40 his non-violent system. 09:42 And Stanley Jones in one of his books 09:45 tells a very engaging contact with Gandhi 09:48 who he met with many times and he spent, 09:50 said one night he sat with Gandhi 09:53 into the wee hours of the morning, 09:56 discussing the meaning of life 09:58 and how we can arrive at a knowledge of the divine 10:02 and Gandhi elsewhere it said that, 10:04 you know, he admired Christianity 10:05 but he didn't like, 10:06 he admired Christ of Christianity 10:09 but he didn't like Christians much 10:11 which is a damning statement, 10:12 but he well knew the principles of Christianity. 10:15 And Stanley Jones said 10:18 that he and Gandhi discussed this 10:20 into the night. 10:22 And Gandhi in the end told him 10:24 because they discussed how do you find the divine? 10:26 How do you reach out and palpably contact God, 10:30 which is the quest of all people of faith, 10:32 particularly Christians? 10:33 I mean, Christians 10:34 particularly empathize with that. 10:37 And he said, Gandhi eventually said yes, 10:39 he says it's possible to connect with the divine. 10:44 But he says it may take ages 10:47 and no miracles are to be expected. 10:52 And Stanley Jones said 10:54 he went back to his room 10:56 where he was staying by himself early in the morning 11:00 in the dark of the night, 11:02 and he said, he got down by his bed 11:04 on his knees and he prayed fervently to God 11:07 and he said, 11:08 I need you God now, I can't wait. 11:11 I need it now. 11:12 And I need a miracle in my life. 11:14 I need a miracle. 11:17 And I've been convicted by that, 11:20 you know, with this program 11:22 and with the magazine that I edit, 11:24 dealing with religious liberty, 11:25 it easily at times devolves into court cases, 11:31 legislative initiatives, in other words, 11:34 a political hurly burly, 11:36 and it's not that that's irrelevant. 11:38 But if you forget 11:39 what Jones was talking to Gandhi about 11:42 and the conclusion he came to, 11:43 if you forget that 11:44 you're into what I think in a religious liberty sense 11:47 is the pure legalism 11:49 that Jesus decried in the Pharisees of His day. 11:53 Religious liberty is not at root 11:57 whether you win this case whether you have this 11:59 or that legal protection. 12:02 It's not even about 12:03 following political developments 12:05 because as we've learned in recent months, 12:07 I think how quickly they can flip or flop. 12:11 I mean, it's not a Darwinian progression 12:15 from tadpole to toad by any means, 12:20 or, you know, from single cell to whatever. 12:22 We don't believe in that. 12:24 But I mean, that's not how history works. 12:26 There are violent and radical changes 12:30 and the power of ideas is quite understated, 12:33 I think in the modern world. 12:35 And we need that miracle 12:37 and without that indwelling miracle 12:39 of the Holy Spirit of the empowerment 12:42 that made a difference in Jones' ministry, 12:44 where he converted many people 12:45 once he got the vision 12:47 of what Christ was and is and can do. 12:50 Without that, 12:51 religious liberty is sort of sophistry. 12:55 But with it, of course, we will monitor 12:57 all those things 12:59 and, of course, as well as that we will see 13:01 the foresight, if you like 13:05 and the guiding power of God working through prophecy. 13:08 And whether prophecy is a type of determinism, 13:11 I think not, some people see it that way, 13:13 or that God who knows the future 13:15 is just revealing some of what's to come 13:19 to encourage His people to know that, 13:22 yes, the way ahead is known, it's mapped out 13:26 but in spite of what will happen, 13:28 God will overcome 13:30 and religious freedom which is the liberation 13:33 from the power of sin 13:34 will be the dominant and end point to all of this. 13:39 I think that's the encouraging point. 13:41 It's a point of the power of God, 13:43 the guidance of God, 13:45 and a dynamic that goes way beyond 13:48 just simple non-violence, 13:49 simple demonstrating against an injustice, 13:53 which some people are more burdened to do 13:55 than others. 13:56 But there has to be a grand end point. 14:00 Not just being an activist for activist sake 14:02 or a theoretician for theoretic sake. 14:06 Stay with me. 14:08 I'll be back shortly 14:09 and to continue this discussion. 14:12 On Liberty Insider, Stanley Jones and India, 14:17 but maybe going a little further 14:19 to particularize it to our need today. |
Revised 2020-10-06