Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program
designed to give you information
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on religious liberty, an
understanding of what it is,
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how it's administered,
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and probably often
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some of the threats in
the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
Editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on the program,
welcome Pastor Alden Ho.
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I found a man of
many skills and many views
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and I want to pick your
brains on another program.
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Are you a fisherman?
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No, actually I... No.
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I'm not either. No.
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I have a son who is
generally impatient.
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But for some reason,
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fishing just draws him
in the idea of going fishing
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and I guess he likes
catching the unknown.
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So fishing at least
is in my family a bit.
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But, you know, I'm
reminded of that Bible story
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where Jesus and His
followers who really,
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as the Bible says,
"The foxes have holes
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but the Son of Man
nowhere to lay His head."
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They were itinerant guys
that I'm sure slipped out
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under the saddle up,
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under the open air a
lot after a hot sunny day.
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But we know
that there were women
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that supplied them with
food and means, but Herod...
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Jew, I was one of them,
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so they were
highly connected women,
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but Jesus and His followers
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really didn't
have much of anything.
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And then as always,
even if you're impoverished,
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the government wants to
cut off what little you have.
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Right. Texas came to you.
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Where do they get it?
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Jesus says, Well,
you know, go fishing.
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And they pulled out just enough
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out of the mouth of
a fish to pay the tax.
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Exact amount.
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Right, yeah. It
was the exact amount.
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So, you know, money can be found
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when it's necessary.
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But it amazes me
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when we talk about
religious liberty very often,
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an element of it as
weird as the means come from
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and will taking
means from the wrong source
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compromise your
practice of religion
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and your faith witness.
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And I think very often
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there's a forgetfulness
of you can fish for it.
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True.
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Yeah, I mean providentially,
not the other way.
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And let's talk
a little bit about
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something that goes
back to the beginnings
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of the religious liberty work
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church,
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a discussion of whether or not
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to take money
usually from authorities,
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from a king,
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from a
president, from a governor,
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from whoever is willing
to give you a lot of money
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to enable your
work, but perhaps,
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then when the going
gets tough or details change,
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maybe then say,
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"Well, you
shouldn't be teaching this.
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You maybe should keep
quiet on this or say this,
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support the government,"
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the strings with most money.
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Very interesting topic
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because, you know,
the Bible does talk about
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not only getting
that out of the fish
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but that's interesting
that came out of natural means.
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But then we're also told here in
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I believe it's Isaiah,
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that...
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Isaiah 60:5,
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"The abundance of the
sea will be turned to you,
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the wealth of the
Gentiles shall come to you."
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How do we draw the
line between the money
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that comes from the Gentiles
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versus the money
that comes from, say,
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the government in stimulus form?
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Well, it's an
interesting twist on it.
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I'm old enough to remember
in more experience, I guess,
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our church used to have
annual in-gathering appeals.
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I think we have something there,
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but it's surely
not what it used to be.
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Definitely not.
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And we would quote
church pioneers who said,
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you know, it's
really a privilege
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for granting
neighbors and community leaders
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to cooperate
financially what we're doing.
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So we didn't see it
even as imposing upon them.
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We're giving
them the opportunity
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to help with a great
work and that was so.
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But there's no
strings that I know
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are from those sorts
of gifts of, are they?
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Well, yes, actually there is.
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I mean, if you accept money
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from certain entities sometimes,
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they want to have control,
they want to have access...
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Oh, no, but I
mean going door to door
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just asking the neighborhood.
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That's totally
different. No, so I don't...
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I never saw a problem with that
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other than as a young
guy, a certain embarrassment.
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I looked forward to in-gathering
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'cause that was a time
period you saw your friends,
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you went out, it was cold.
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Yes, yes.
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But that was the fellowship,
the aspect back then.
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But it's not...
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It's extinct today.
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But you certainly
jumped ahead in my thinking.
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Absolutely, when you get
into more formal applications
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for grants and
government assistance,
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and so on,
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there's usually
detailed criteria
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you have to satisfy to
get it in the first place,
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which in the case of
religious schools and so on
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means that you
set up curriculum,
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even facilities to agree
with government requirements,
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which is sort of a catch 22...
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It's almost...
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Because it'll cost you
more to come to the standards
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and therefore you
need even more of the money
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that you're asking
for in the first place.
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Right, but it seems as though
you're selling yourself out.
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It's like Jacob and Esau,
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selling your birthright
for a bowl of porridge.
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And that's what usually happens.
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But I don't know, if
there's certain criteria that,
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you know, after X amount,
then we tell you what to do.
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Well, I don't
think there's a criteria
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because it varies
from country to country,
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from administration
to administration,
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and maybe even the personnel,
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different person
in the same government
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or official job
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might look
differently on the public,
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how they relate
to the public trust,
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money that's given.
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I know that just
several months ago,
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I was in Belize
for a mission trip
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and even in the Seventh-day
Adventist school system there,
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all the teachers were paid
actually by the government.
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So you really couldn't
let them go per se fire them
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because they were
government employees
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working in your school.
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I didn't know that about Belize,
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but yeah, that's almost totally
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the worst
situation you could get.
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Yeah. So how do
you correct somebody?
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You can't do much.
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And so I think the
same thing falls upon us.
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At what point do we have
to accept a certain amount
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or should we not
accept anything at all?
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Now I'm sure in Belize,
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government can work
through that situation.
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It's not the end
of all good works.
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And in any
situation to take money
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from another source,
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even money that might
ultimately compromise you
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is not in itself a culpable act
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or evil in itself.
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But to me
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it's in the same
category as Hezekiah.
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Recently healed by God,
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when he was told
that he might not last,
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so he was already in a
sort of an independent mode.
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And he gets to
bragging with the Babylonians
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and showing them the
treasures and all the rest.
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Well, that wasn't really wrong.
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But he'd lost his
sense of perspective,
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not understanding that
his wealth was from the Lord
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and it wasn't even,
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you know, the treasure per
se that made Israel strong,
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he should have been
telling them more about,
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you know, God's way for
mankind rather than what he had.
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But he basically
sold them down the river,
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and it led directly to invasion
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and the loss of liberty
for many of God's people.
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And I see taking
state aid in that same line,
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you can't say church leaders
who sign on the dotted line
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and lose their
autonomy and done evil thing,
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but they've delivered themselves
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into the hands of
evildoers and evil times.
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They've created vulnerability.
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So do you think as a
result of accepting that,
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then the government's
going to come back and say,
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"Hey, do you
remember in the year 2020,
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during the COVID thing,
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we gave you some stimulus money?
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And so now you got to do this,
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you got to do this
and you can't do that."
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Well, of course,
that always happens.
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Always happens.
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And, you know, you're
getting into the present.
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That's exactly
what's happening now.
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The United States, I
think, with good intention,
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at least the majority
of government officials,
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I think with good intention,
others with some cynicism
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because some of them must
know it's a bankrupt country.
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And I've even had
some family members
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that were not running
their finances the way I would
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and then they were very
free to give something away
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or to give away big gifts.
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That's not a sign of generosity.
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It's a sign of
further irresponsibility
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if you're not managing
and you're wasting something
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that you should have
been paying your debts on.
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So the US debt
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is
mathematically almost impossible
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to ever pay back, right?
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So what do you
think, if it's that bad,
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where are they getting
all this money from to...
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It's made up money.
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Made up money, in the
sense of, they're printing it?
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No, they didn't even print it.
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We will likely at the edge
and, you know, we're entering,
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it's not
conspiracy theory or anything,
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but, you know,
it doesn't narrowly
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relate to religious liberty,
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but to describe
the times we're in
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and I think
this is a good chance
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to explain to
people where we are.
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You know, the
whole monetary system
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in the West is largely,
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it's an old-fashioned
word that people understand,
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it's very close
to a Ponzi scheme,
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or as the Bible puts it,
00:10:38.77\00:10:40.40
it's a system that
when people lose confidence,
00:10:40.44\00:10:42.90
the merchants will wail
00:10:42.94\00:10:44.27
over what's
lost in half an hour.
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Money is a complex
thing, people get doctorates
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and schools established
on finance and so on,
00:10:50.88\00:10:55.52
but you need to understand that
money is an exchange system,
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and all you're
exchanging the value
00:10:59.42\00:11:01.66
either put into
something by labor
00:11:01.69\00:11:04.79
or of goods, right?
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And you can monetize
that through different things.
00:11:08.70\00:11:11.97
In the island of Yap,
00:11:12.00\00:11:13.34
they used to have
carved stone circles.
00:11:13.37\00:11:17.04
In New Guinea, pigs.
00:11:17.07\00:11:20.38
You need an
item, a reference item.
00:11:20.41\00:11:22.74
And most countries for
most of recorded history
00:11:22.78\00:11:25.78
have used
valuable metals like gold.
00:11:25.81\00:11:29.52
Gold is pretty indestructible,
00:11:29.55\00:11:33.29
compact, heavy, and so on.
00:11:33.32\00:11:34.66
That's reasonable.
00:11:34.69\00:11:36.02
It doesn't have to be
gold, it could be silver.
00:11:36.06\00:11:37.83
It could be diamonds
but an agreed upon thing.
00:11:37.86\00:11:42.46
Then you've got a
pure reference point
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that continues
and is a solid base.
00:11:44.37\00:11:48.64
US used to have it,
00:11:48.67\00:11:50.54
although if you know US history,
00:11:50.57\00:11:52.71
right after the
War of Independence,
00:11:52.74\00:11:55.18
this country spent
money they didn't have,
00:11:55.21\00:11:57.78
there was massive inflation.
00:11:57.81\00:11:59.61
The wages of the
revolutionary soldiers
00:11:59.65\00:12:01.68
given to them in a
chip became worthless.
00:12:01.72\00:12:05.42
They were exchanging them
00:12:05.45\00:12:06.79
for equivalent
of a cup of coffee
00:12:06.82\00:12:08.16
at one point,
00:12:08.19\00:12:09.52
and General Washington said,
00:12:09.56\00:12:10.89
"Hang on to it, it
may become valuable."
00:12:10.93\00:12:12.39
Well, it never did very much.
00:12:12.43\00:12:14.10
But that said, until the '70s,
00:12:14.13\00:12:16.13
the US
extensively on the dollar said
00:12:16.16\00:12:18.93
it could be exchanged for gold.
00:12:18.97\00:12:21.04
We went off that.
00:12:21.07\00:12:22.40
So now the money's only money
because they say it's money
00:12:22.44\00:12:26.01
and you accept it as money.
00:12:26.04\00:12:28.14
That's fine.
00:12:28.18\00:12:30.05
But when you produce
money out of proportion
00:12:30.08\00:12:33.58
to the solid
substance of real wealth,
00:12:33.62\00:12:35.92
which is labor and goods,
00:12:35.95\00:12:38.52
something starts to give.
00:12:38.55\00:12:40.36
It's true. I remember...
00:12:40.39\00:12:41.72
And we are in a stage now
00:12:41.76\00:12:43.26
where there's a term
that is used on television
00:12:43.29\00:12:45.56
and no one much
knows what it means,
00:12:45.59\00:12:47.26
quantitative easing.
00:12:47.30\00:12:48.73
It's not even printing money.
00:12:48.76\00:12:50.10
It's typing numbers
in different places.
00:12:50.13\00:12:53.34
Fudging your bank account
00:12:53.37\00:12:54.70
And... Basically.
00:12:54.74\00:12:56.07
The law of
finances is irrevocable
00:12:56.10\00:12:58.71
and unchangeable.
00:12:58.74\00:13:00.94
At some point that
catches up with you
00:13:00.98\00:13:03.58
in the form of
massive inflation.
00:13:03.61\00:13:06.38
That's true. Or
another way of putting it.
00:13:06.41\00:13:09.18
You pay a tax in
value, it becomes
00:13:09.22\00:13:11.79
depending on how
much you borrow it
00:13:11.82\00:13:13.49
through throwing numbers around,
00:13:13.52\00:13:16.39
the money's
worth that much less.
00:13:16.42\00:13:17.93
Now I know you're not a prophet.
00:13:17.96\00:13:20.13
And since I know that,
00:13:20.16\00:13:21.80
but you're
watching what's going on.
00:13:21.83\00:13:26.13
Hyper...
00:13:26.17\00:13:27.70
Is it hyper or
super hyperinflation?
00:13:27.74\00:13:29.40
Hyperinflation.
00:13:29.44\00:13:30.77
Hyperinflation I know
is going to be coming here.
00:13:30.81\00:13:33.98
What's your guess? When?
00:13:34.01\00:13:36.95
Well, you know,
my $10 is in the bank
00:13:36.98\00:13:39.45
and I'd be very happy personally
00:13:39.48\00:13:41.08
if it didn't
come, I'll have to...
00:13:41.12\00:13:42.48
You and I are gone.
00:13:42.52\00:13:44.09
But the chances are very
high. We'll live to see it.
00:13:44.12\00:13:47.72
And no one knows
how high it can be.
00:13:47.76\00:13:51.86
I remember going to
Brazil a few decades ago
00:13:51.89\00:13:54.66
when they had 600% inflation,
which is quite startling.
00:13:54.70\00:13:59.20
And, you know, $60 gave me
a stack of bills that high.
00:13:59.23\00:14:04.04
Very hard for
country to survive.
00:14:04.07\00:14:06.41
Germany, in between the wars,
00:14:06.44\00:14:09.41
had inflation of
massive proportions
00:14:09.44\00:14:11.71
where it took
literally a barrel load of money
00:14:11.75\00:14:13.55
to get an apple.
00:14:13.58\00:14:14.92
Exactly.
00:14:14.95\00:14:16.28
Zimbabwe, very
recently had inflation
00:14:16.32\00:14:19.35
where I saw on television
recently one financial lecturer
00:14:19.39\00:14:23.93
waving around the
Zimbabwe $20 trillion note.
00:14:23.96\00:14:28.10
I mean, that's
just a fantastical...
00:14:28.13\00:14:29.73
And they were worthless,
so close to worthless.
00:14:29.76\00:14:32.33
So there's no rules on that.
00:14:32.37\00:14:33.77
But once you unleash
it, it's very hard to stop.
00:14:33.80\00:14:37.01
And speaking to our church,
00:14:37.04\00:14:42.24
Ellen White, the
visionary co-founder,
00:14:42.28\00:14:45.15
she warned of a stage
00:14:45.18\00:14:46.51
that will come
before the end of time
00:14:46.55\00:14:47.95
when funds that could have been
given earlier to the church,
00:14:47.98\00:14:53.36
given a little
belatedly they'll be worthless.
00:14:53.39\00:14:55.26
People
basically throw the money.
00:14:55.29\00:14:56.62
Yeah.
00:14:56.66\00:14:57.99
So that's likely.
00:14:58.03\00:14:59.36
And, you know, you and I
can do little about it, except,
00:14:59.39\00:15:03.20
I think realize that
this might be a consequence.
00:15:03.23\00:15:05.63
So where it comes to,
we'll pick it up after a break,
00:15:05.67\00:15:09.44
is in this sort of a situation
00:15:09.47\00:15:11.71
where a
government wanting to help
00:15:11.74\00:15:13.91
as much as it can
00:15:13.94\00:15:15.28
when tens of millions
of people are out of work,
00:15:15.31\00:15:16.85
hopefully temporarily,
00:15:16.88\00:15:18.31
is literally
throwing this sort of money
00:15:18.35\00:15:21.05
at the church.
00:15:21.08\00:15:22.48
Is this the time to
take a complicating gift,
00:15:22.52\00:15:26.72
which is always complicating,
but especially at a moment
00:15:26.76\00:15:29.56
when it's essentially worthless?
00:15:29.59\00:15:31.69
Yeah. We'll be back.
00:15:31.73\00:15:33.06
Let's take a break
00:15:33.09\00:15:34.43
and stay with us
for this discussion.
00:15:34.46\00:15:35.96