Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI200468B
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00:01 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:02 Before the break with guest Alden Ho, 00:05 we were, both I think, 00:07 waxing eloquent about the changes 00:10 that the COVID emergency is wrought. 00:12 And the social distancing is troubled me more and more. 00:15 Yeah. 00:17 And with that social distancing, 00:19 you compare, what you said before 00:20 about people going in the underground, 00:22 having meetings, but I'm not finding that now. 00:25 Social distancing has really stopped it 00:29 and Zoom has taken over taken over, whatever you think. 00:31 Right. And Zoom has its place. 00:35 But I don't know, isn't the Bible say, 00:38 "Forsake not to gather and get yourselves together?" 00:41 There were reasons for the early Christians 00:44 needing to gather and share experiences 00:49 and pray together. 00:50 Just as there have always been reasons 00:52 for any group with an agenda 00:55 needing to gather in the cell. 00:58 And I'm not really sure 00:59 in spite of all of the claims made, 01:02 even as far back as Tiananmen Square, 01:04 the Twitter 01:05 and all these other social media things 01:07 can mobilize a rebellion. 01:09 In fact, I'm not that so always a rebellion. 01:10 But, you know, 01:11 that they were talking about a rebellion. 01:13 But I'm not even that sure 01:15 that was called the green rebellion in Iran 01:17 when the young people rose up. 01:19 I don't think that was just social media, 01:21 but it was clearly a part of it. 01:24 And it wasn't successful anyway. 01:26 I don't think there's any real substitute 01:29 for face-to-face. 01:32 And so for us to hide our faces from other people, 01:36 keep to our homes... 01:39 That's what I believe at its fullest. 01:43 That's breaking down what I studied in school 01:45 is the social contract. 01:48 It would have been interesting to see 100 years ago 01:51 with that Spanish Flu when it came up, 01:53 where there underground meetings 01:55 that were going on, 01:56 or people more fearful because of their health. 01:58 They were fearful. 02:00 But I don't think they were the same prohibitions 02:03 from a central authority 02:05 'cause they didn't understand the disease very plainly. 02:07 It was people commuting to work apocryphally, 02:10 that would fall dead in the streetcar. 02:13 They seem healthy and gone. 02:16 Now we're doing some necessary steps 02:20 to contain it. 02:22 Some countries better than others, 02:23 and I don't think the US could hold it 02:25 and set up the highest. 02:27 It was late to the party and short of masks. 02:30 And we were even fed this information 02:32 which should get people a little suspicious. 02:35 We were told specifically masks had no value 02:38 when we had no mask. 02:40 Now that we have them, everyone wear them. 02:42 So people should be a little bit careful. 02:44 It's not particularly the US more than others. 02:47 Authorities tell the messages 02:49 what they think the message they'd hear. 02:52 And the Bible says this calls for wisdom, 02:55 we need to be wise as serpents, harmless as doves. 02:58 Don't believe everything you're told by every party. 03:01 But if you don't believe it, and if you don't do it... 03:06 Well, that's the bottom line. 03:07 And, you know, I have no burden, 03:10 never had a burden to encourage Christians 03:13 or any people of faith in testing any system 03:16 whether it's a relatively free democratic system, 03:19 like in the West or repressive like, 03:23 let's pick on someone is gone, Saddam Hussein's Iraq, 03:27 oppressive North Korea, very oppressive. 03:30 I don't think in any system people of faith 03:33 should test the system just to test it. 03:36 We're not called to be rebels, 03:38 but we're called to practice our faith in any situation. 03:42 And no matter what that system is, 03:45 if it's restricting our faith we push back against it. 03:48 It seems to me... 03:50 And more than that, which comes hard to Americans, 03:54 I think the Bible shows that there's always a cost. 03:57 You can't expect to do that 04:00 and for any system to hold you harmless. 04:04 Even in a democracy there might be fines, 04:06 there might even be imprisonment. 04:08 But if your faith holds, 04:10 with your faith that's important 04:11 you take the consequence. 04:13 But how do you go against that, as a church, 04:17 for the forsaking of the assembly of ourselves? 04:19 Amidst all this, 04:21 there's a pastor that did go against that, 04:24 and they were threatening him and throwing him in prison. 04:27 And without knowing that particular case, 04:30 I still think from a point of conscience, 04:34 that's admirable, 04:35 somebody that follows their conviction 04:38 has to be admired. 04:39 Is it admirable or rebellious? 04:42 Well, that's you need to decide on that individual, 04:45 it might be rebellious. 04:48 Paul's made it very plain 04:50 the authorities have legitimate control 04:52 in civil matters 04:54 and we're to obey them 04:56 when they wield the sword not in vain. 04:58 But if they're wielding the sword like... 05:03 What's his name? 05:04 Nero, who persecuted the Christians. 05:06 Clearly that was not something that Paul would be happy with. 05:09 Nero was persecuting. It was an evil sword. 05:14 So then that I guess the question I want to ask you 05:16 is social distancing, is that constitutional? 05:20 What if you don't? 05:21 Well, let me put it another way. 05:22 And this is a thought that I don't think very many... 05:25 I've not read anyone questioning it. 05:28 It's reasonable 05:29 from a public health point of view, 05:31 to chase down a virus 05:35 or pandemic or plague, whatever, 05:39 you know, the manifestation of this pestilence, 05:42 survival with that we used to. 05:46 Yes, if someone's got leprosy, 05:51 to go biblical, 05:53 the Old Testament was very plain on it, 05:55 they to be kept apart 05:56 because they were a threat to healthy people. 05:59 But what we've done which has almost no precedent 06:02 in any system, 06:04 particularly in the West is to restrict 06:07 the freedoms of healthy people because they might get sick. 06:12 That's bizarre. 06:14 I think that runs against all the norms 06:16 of civil and religious freedom. 06:20 But they say at the same time, governors are saying, 06:25 "You need to stay home, but it's okay to walk your dog. 06:28 It's okay to ride your bike." 06:30 Well, in practice, 06:32 I can only speak to the US which I've experienced. 06:34 In practice, it's not done in an onerous way. 06:39 I haven't seen anyone arrested. 06:42 And this is really my point. 06:45 Suggestions were put out 06:47 and most churches and faith groups just fell back 06:51 and just ceased operation instantly. 06:54 When there clearly was a middle ground 06:56 that they could have occupied 06:58 and without any sense of the authorities 07:01 wanting to persecute Christians, 07:03 I think they would have been fine 07:04 but instead they just shut down. 07:08 And the one area... 07:10 And this has been mentioned 07:11 in an article of Liberty already. 07:13 The one area that's a little ambiguous, 07:16 one state they even forbade drive thru church assembly. 07:21 Now, I thought about that a lot of times, 07:23 I can't see any rationale that that's a health threat, 07:27 none whatsoever, 07:29 to have a whole bunch of people sitting in their cars 07:31 in the open area, in the open air, 07:34 either watching a screen or listening on the radio 07:37 to some, you know, group broadcast 07:39 that it's affected sort of a halfway house 07:42 from Zoom and other things. 07:43 But there's a lot of stuff that's been going on 07:46 that they have. 07:47 I don't know who does this. 07:48 They sit in their office and a bunch of them say, 07:51 "What can we do to make it difficult for people?" 07:53 And just make it so stupid, 07:55 because they showed a park that had bathrooms, 07:58 but the bathroom said it was clearly locked, 08:00 please because for COVID-19 we're just trying to keep safe, 08:04 but please be free to use 08:06 the porta potties in front of them. 08:08 How does that work? 08:09 Well, a lot of its illogical 08:11 because we're dealing with a panic. 08:12 I understand that. 08:13 And the panic is not just with the population, 08:16 a lot of public officials are panicked. 08:18 And with some cause... 08:19 I still remember early on, 08:24 seeing the foreign news media and the health minister, 08:26 I think it was in Iran, was on television, 08:29 telling people not to worry, and he's wiping his brow. 08:32 He died a couple of days later from COVID. 08:35 They clearly have 08:37 a more pernicious form of it in Iran, 08:39 and, you know, there's pictures of mass graves 08:41 and so on. 08:42 But obviously those officials they should have been panicked. 08:47 And in England, 08:49 we had Boris Johnson treated nice, elated. 08:53 He said, "You know, the risk is there." 08:56 I know President Trump doesn't seem to care, 08:58 no masking. 08:59 He's very lucky. 09:01 But there are reasons even for officials to worry, 09:05 but just looked at it 09:07 structurally and I think this is a thinking point 09:09 for this program or for all around the world, 09:11 I hope people at least think about it. 09:13 Social distancing makes a certain sense. 09:17 And, of course, we're doing it now, 09:19 for practical reason. 09:20 Yeah. Right. 09:22 For sure. 09:23 It's not wrong, it makes good public health sense. 09:24 But taken to a limit, 09:27 it will tend to break down the social glue 09:32 that makes the whole world work. 09:36 Even a democracy needs, 09:38 I alluded to earlier as the social contract, 09:40 an agreement 09:42 that you will abide by the rules, 09:44 you will react this way with your fellows 09:46 because you respect other human beings. 09:48 Once we become only autonomous islands 09:53 of existence 09:54 and we don't see the same way 09:56 other human beings the same way, 09:58 things start to fall apart. 10:00 To use, you know, poem by William Bentley, 10:04 it's the second coming. 10:06 He says, "If the center cannot hold, 10:07 things fall apart." 10:09 And over the years I've read many, many things, 10:13 especially, from repressive governments. 10:14 I remember reading Solzhenitsyn's writings 10:18 from Soviet Russia. 10:20 And he described social distancing 10:24 the sense of social isolation 10:26 that was engendered in the dissidents, the idea, 10:30 not just an idea but how they were kept apart, 10:33 they were even sent the Siberian 10:36 and sometimes isolation in a cell for months on. 10:41 This was all designed to give you a sense 10:43 that you have no other support. 10:45 You are simply by yourself. 10:48 And here there's this massive power structure 10:50 that you don't dare challenge. 10:51 And I really believe 10:53 that we're going through advertently or inadvertently 10:56 the makeup of what we're going through 10:58 the process that sets us up for the same, sort of, 11:01 centralized control and inhibition of freedoms 11:05 that we've seen 11:06 in some of these most repressive places. 11:08 And that word control is very critical word. 11:12 Let me read you a quote that the Governor Newsom 11:14 from California said, 11:16 at the beginning of all this COVID stuff, 11:18 he says, "People will self-regulate 11:19 their behavior. 11:21 They'll begin to adjust and adapt. 11:23 We will have social pressure 11:24 that will encourage people to do the right thing." 11:27 Yeah, I'm sure the governor didn't really have a sinister 11:30 under meaning to that. 11:31 But when you just take it at face value, 11:33 the implication is very plain. 11:35 There's an inhibition of freedom 11:38 and the right of the individual. 11:40 And will that bring 11:42 about something in the future for us? 11:43 I think so. 11:44 I think rulers and citizens, 11:48 I don't think there's a bad guy in this 11:49 but we're all sort of in a flow 11:51 that is tending to redefine rights, freedoms, 11:56 and the role of the individual versus an authority, 12:00 figure out group. 12:02 And for us today, I mean, we have to decide. 12:05 For me it's troubling when I read that, 12:07 and I started seeing what was going on, 12:11 they actually have I mean, 12:12 you look at the latest iPhone update, 12:15 they can report things through that 12:17 where your location is, all those things. 12:19 You're getting into another thing. 12:20 We need to have a program on that 12:21 because I do believe 12:23 and I've mentioned before that 12:24 technology have sort of handed the mechanism 12:26 to any authority group to control and to persecute 12:31 and devil gets the individual. 12:34 But it's a brave new world, isn't it, to borrow from, 12:38 a famous piece of work? 12:39 It is, but my concern still is 12:41 when you're looking at this whole thing, 12:43 and what they're saying 12:44 and having the people monitor you, 12:47 it's almost like the people 12:50 become the new police system to be able to say. 12:53 We'll have the people that are going to tell us 12:56 who's complying and who's not. 12:57 Which has horrible shades of the Communist Bloc Group 13:01 where you as citizens reporting on other citizens. 13:03 We need to fight that. Yeah. 13:05 But today right now for us, 13:07 what we have to do is 13:08 we have to figure out where we're going to be going. 13:11 And as a people, are we going to fight? 13:16 I guess for me, I look at all this 13:18 and I have some concerns that this is where all things 13:21 are going right now today in our world. 13:27 In the middle of a crowd, 13:28 it's often very hard to notice the individual. 13:33 Of course, in this COVID-19 era, 13:37 a crowd is a very relative thing. 13:39 Six foot apart takes a lot of space to make a crowd. 13:45 But I read in the Bible 13:46 that in the midst of a great crowd, 13:48 the press of the crowd, 13:50 Jesus felt somebody touched the hem of His garment, 13:54 a woman that needed healing 13:56 and received it by touching Him. 13:58 Somehow we Christians, 14:01 we people of faith in a time of COVID-19, 14:04 social distancing, 14:06 still need to realize 14:08 that there is the touch toward the master, 14:11 toward a spiritual power beyond this necessary, 14:15 obligatory, and that social distancing, 14:17 while in a civil sense may create a passive populace, 14:23 may soften us up for abuses from the powers here 14:29 that are above us, 14:30 that ultimately we do need 14:32 a touch and a contact with the divine. 14:36 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2020-07-09