Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI200467B
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00:01 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:02 Before the break, 00:04 we were in a very portentous discussion 00:06 about the partisan, 00:08 nationalism and then triumphalism 00:10 that just floats swirling around us 00:12 at the moment in the US 00:14 as we come up to a presidential election. 00:17 And, of course, there's different views 00:19 on who should be voted 00:20 whether the president should stay or so. 00:22 But when there's this backdrop of this 00:25 rather radical nationalism 00:27 mixed with a more than a dose of religion, 00:30 Christianity, it's a heady mix, isn't it? 00:33 Very heady, you know, who's... 00:36 Oh, when you start dividing up partisanly, 00:41 which church members are right, 00:43 and which church members are wrong? 00:46 This is where when you come from a servant leader position 00:50 like we did, 00:52 and you're interacting, this becomes a question. 00:56 You know, do you believe. 00:57 Well, even in the afternoon meetings 00:59 that we all run and, you know, 01:00 I have at least half the year I've got an afternoon meeting 01:03 and the standard retained 01:05 as we go through and critique 01:07 whoever the national leadership is for their treatment 01:12 of religious freedom 01:13 and their public statements or so, have to do that. 01:15 How else could we have a discussion? 01:17 But I'm finding more and more that people bridle, 01:20 if you say anything critical or analytical 01:24 about their current hero. 01:27 There's always been an element of that, 01:29 but it's on steroids at the moment. 01:31 It is much worse 01:32 than I've ever encountered before. 01:36 When I do an afternoon meeting 01:37 just because you're doing current events. 01:40 When you talk about current events, 01:43 you're looking at what is happening now. 01:48 You're not looking at what happened the last term 01:50 of the last president or the last, you know, 01:53 term for the last Supreme Court session 01:57 or congressional session. 01:59 And so, people do tend to get very connected 02:03 and tied to their political party, 02:07 and they don't want to hear anything bad about it. 02:09 But the truth is this. 02:13 When it comes to the First Amendment, 02:16 and the separation of church and the state 02:19 and free exercise, 02:20 we clearly are schizophrenic in this country 02:23 regarding the party system, 02:26 because if you're a Republican, 02:30 you tend to really protect the free exercise part. 02:34 Yes, it is true. 02:36 And if you're a Democrat, 02:37 you want to protect that establishment clause part 02:40 to keep church and state separate. 02:42 So in any given scenario, 02:45 you and I as religious liberty leaders 02:48 in the church, 02:50 we're going to say something negative 02:53 about the political party. 02:55 And it's a good time to throw in my theory, 02:57 I believe most of the time I've been on liberty, 03:00 the battle has been over establishment state aid 03:05 and state supported religious activity 03:07 and we've got it with a vengeance now, 03:09 with the religious faction supporting the president, 03:12 they are favored. 03:13 And I believe we're at the tipping point 03:15 where Free Exercise is going to be... 03:18 Free Exercise is really becoming an issue. 03:21 Yeah. 03:22 And in many ways, 03:24 that's the more egregious break of the First Amendment. 03:29 And I think that's upon us. 03:31 And that's really why we get this combative issues 03:38 between Christians who want the right to practice 03:41 their religion freely 03:43 and are seen to be Republican. 03:46 And the LGBTQ community 03:50 that want to fight against religious, 03:53 you know, Free Exercise, 03:55 because they're being discriminated against, 03:57 and they're seen as being the ungodly Democrat Party. 04:01 And again, we have to look beyond this. 04:05 We have to look beyond the political party system. 04:08 And we have to come together and say, 04:11 "There has to be a way in a civilized society 04:14 that religion is protected, 04:18 yet not used to put down another segment of society." 04:23 I know, it said nicely, but in reality, 04:26 a large faction want to use religion 04:29 to put down their opposition. 04:31 But as far as examples, 04:35 it's pretty easy to look to Nazi Germany 04:37 and some people just go ballistic. 04:39 You know, the idea that you're directly comparing 04:41 any personage or aspect of our government 04:45 to Nazism is horrific. 04:47 And on the face of it, of course it is. 04:50 But the reason Nazi Germany is so important 04:53 in the modern era, it was a democratic state, 04:56 a modern, industrialized democratic state 04:59 that went in that abhorrent direction. 05:01 The only other example in the modern world 05:03 that I think we can look at is Italy. 05:09 Well, not the only other example. 05:10 The only other two is Italy. 05:12 And there was more of, 05:15 as the knock against Italy was it 05:18 was more of posturing 05:19 Mussolini was a stutter and all the rest. 05:22 And you go to Rome today 05:24 and there's the great monuments he built. 05:26 The edifices of fascism is still with us. 05:29 But as it soon revealed against senior brother Hitler, 05:34 and Mussolini was sort of a wannabe. 05:37 But the only other example is Spain. 05:40 And that came out of the Civil War 05:41 and then the role of the Catholic Church 05:44 there was rather medieval, and so on. 05:46 So I don't think there's easy parallels 05:48 between both of those. 05:50 So Germany is the natural one. 05:51 Germany will always be the natural one. 05:52 And there's been no enabling act 05:55 in the US 05:56 so that we have had the Reichstag equivalent, 9/11. 06:00 But we haven't had an enabling act. 06:02 But as far as our church 06:05 and I'm not picking on Adventism 06:06 'cause it's my favorite church. 06:08 My too. 06:09 My favorite Christian Church. 06:11 But in Germany 06:13 as the National Socialist came to power, 06:17 Adolf Hitler made very good noises 06:19 about support of Christianity. 06:20 In fact, he even said that National Socialism 06:22 was based on Christianity which was nonsensical. 06:26 It was fake news, but it worked for him. 06:29 And even in our church, as most Christian churches, 06:32 the Catholic Church made a formal agreement 06:35 with the state. 06:37 They liked its opposition to communism/socialism, 06:41 even though they were National Socialists, 06:43 didn't like communism. 06:45 So the church was with him. 06:47 And I know a story 06:49 about our church that's very sad. 06:51 But it's illustrative, so I'm telling it. 06:54 Not only in the churches where men did many of them 06:56 have the swastika behind the lectern, 06:59 which is the rough equivalent 07:01 today of the American flag 07:02 alongside the so called Christian flag, 07:05 not a place to clamp the standard of the state. 07:08 You can be fully state supporting, 07:09 but in that holy place, it's dedicated to God. 07:12 So I think it's inappropriate. 07:14 But there was a story that I've come across 07:18 that during the build up to power before World War II, 07:21 one of our church leaders, a woman 07:24 who was in our church in Germany 07:26 was in charge of the Sabbath school department, 07:29 came on tour of the United States. 07:32 And as she traveled around, 07:33 the word started getting back to the leadership. 07:35 This woman's pushing Nazism and Hitler. 07:40 So finally they took her aside and they found 07:43 that she was a personal friend of Joseph Goebbels. 07:46 And that, you know, wouldn't challenge with it? 07:49 Absolutely, Nazism is the answer for everything 07:51 and so she was shipped back to Germany. 07:53 So it tells me how totally the insiders had been turned 07:59 in support of Nazism rather than... 08:02 She should have been going around talking 08:04 about running Bible study courses 08:07 and, you know, on the Sabbath School program 08:09 at the beginning of the church service 08:10 each Sabbath. 08:11 She was rather promoting this 08:14 abhorrent disastrous political agenda. 08:19 But at that point, she couldn't have known that. 08:21 Because it wasn't out in terms of Nazism. 08:24 No. 08:25 It was a moral regeneration of the nation. 08:27 And people... 08:29 Which all the Christian churches supported... 08:30 They loved it. They loved it. 08:32 I mean, they should have been a little bit more perceptive 08:35 because the bully boy tactics of the brown shirts 08:37 from day one were to, sort of, like a protection racket 08:41 in with the shopkeepers 08:43 and that they would strong arm it. 08:44 Keep in mind that they're coming off of a war 08:45 they had lost. 08:47 And a great depression. 08:48 And a great depression and they're trying to repay. 08:49 Where people have lost nearly everything. 08:51 No, they were 1,000 exculpatory reasons 08:55 why they got into that. 08:58 I think by that point though, 09:00 a perceptive Christian should have been forewarned. 09:03 But they've been carried along so much that, like I say, 09:06 this church leader was good buddies 09:08 with the propagandist of Nazism 09:10 was promoting it here in North America. 09:13 So it's insidious, Nazism. 09:16 But really in reality, 09:18 any contrary system 09:19 and especially the dangerous ones, 09:22 letting them into the Christian community 09:24 is, you know, it's worse than white-anting. 09:27 It's like, you know, 09:29 drilling for putting dynamite sticks 09:31 within the Christian community. 09:33 And, of course, that way was carried 09:35 through on this issue of nationalism, 09:38 not Nazism, but nationalism. 09:40 Yes, absolutely. 09:41 This comes back to where our concern is today, 09:44 that there is a rise in nationalism in the US, 09:49 and that it's dangerous. 09:51 And this is the type that we know. 09:52 Well, I'll complete and give you a, 09:55 not a last word but the word after made them. 09:58 But I've thought about this an American, 10:00 nationalism dependent upon religious bloc 10:03 or ethnic bloc, 10:04 what is to create nationalism in the United States? 10:08 There's only a few things, 10:10 a single shared ideal of individual liberty 10:13 and freedom for all. 10:15 It was a touchstone for a long time. 10:17 But I think that's drifting away. 10:20 It's being replaced by a, sort of, 10:22 a triumphalist view of us. 10:26 You know, and then in brackets, (sort of voice), 10:29 sort of, white "Americans." 10:33 It's us against the world to protect what we have, 10:37 which is a welfare, exceptionalism, 10:40 our standard living above everyone else 10:42 that will fight you to keep it. 10:44 Yes, definitely. 10:46 And that's a false 10:48 sort of a nationalism in my view. 10:49 It's always dangerous to do that. 10:51 And, you know, again, we have to remember that 10:54 to be Christian and Christ like 10:58 is not necessary to align ourselves 11:02 with one political party or the other. 11:04 It's just to do what's right, 11:07 and to try to make society 11:11 a better place for everyone to be. 11:17 It's been a few years since my father died, 11:19 but I will never forget that night in the hospital. 11:22 He was only a few hours away from his death 11:24 and they gave him a last minute surgery. 11:26 And as they wheeled him down through the public place 11:29 into the prep room for surgery, 11:32 he was singing a song that I'd heard before. 11:35 I think most recently, it was a sacred harp choir. 11:41 That is quite a sound if you've ever heard it. 11:42 And he was singing the song, 11:44 "There is a happy land far, far away 11:48 where saints and angels dwell." 11:50 When we talk about nationalism, 11:52 and indeed Christian nationalism, 11:55 I think it's worth remembering that for the Christian, 11:58 that has to be the point of reference 12:00 that happy land far, far away, 12:03 that Promised Land. 12:05 But for Christians living in a society, 12:08 particularly in a modern, democratic society, 12:11 the temptation is overwhelming to be swept along 12:15 in a tide of enthusiasm 12:17 for what that state is and can provide. 12:19 That's fine. 12:21 We have certain voting 12:22 and citizenship responsibilities 12:24 and the loyalty to provide for the here and now. 12:27 But always beyond that there has to be the song 12:31 of that happy land far, far away. 12:36 For liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2020-07-06