Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI200467A
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00:29 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:31 This is your program 00:33 for those of you that follow this regularly 00:35 and if not, then it is yours. 00:37 And please stay with us because this is your program, 00:40 where we discuss religious liberty 00:42 in the United States very often 00:45 and elsewhere in the world 00:46 because religious liberty is the hot topic for our time. 00:50 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:53 and my guest on this program, 00:55 top religious liberty expert Amireh Al Haddad. 00:59 You're director of Public Affairs 01:01 and Religious Liberty 01:02 for the Southern Union of the Seventh-day Adventists. 01:05 And I know you've been involved 01:07 hands on level for longer than me 01:10 on Liberty Magazine, 25 years or so, isn't it? 01:13 Yeah. 01:15 So let's use, 01:17 if not our experience 01:18 then our imagination on our worldview 01:20 and let's just looking at the world 01:22 as a whole. 01:24 How would you fit the emerging concept 01:26 in the US now 01:28 or at least the buzzword of nationalism? 01:30 Is this a global phenomenon or is it a passing phenomenon? 01:34 What's going on? 01:35 Because there's clearly a nationalist buzz 01:37 in Europe, 01:39 and the United States, and a few other countries. 01:41 Well, I think we've seen it just this year 01:43 with the Brexit happening. 01:47 People wanting to be 01:49 their own bosses again in Europe. 01:54 I think that we're seeing it in the US. 01:56 I concentrate more in the US with my job 01:59 than I do around the world. 02:01 But I definitely see 02:03 that there are issues that are happening. 02:05 I remember about 25 years ago 02:07 when the European Union was, kind of, coming to, 02:12 you know, formation 02:13 and everybody was like saying... 02:15 What did they call it before, 02:17 it was the European Common Market? 02:19 Common Market, yeah. 02:20 That was when I was a kid, even in Australia, 02:22 back in the early 60s. 02:25 Yeah. 02:26 It was very troubling at a distance in Australia. 02:28 They saw it as England 02:30 deserting its colonies and allies, 02:34 and what do we call? 02:36 Now I should remember the Commonwealth of Nations, 02:41 but England joined with Europe. 02:42 And that seemed like a done deal. 02:44 Now England don't want to deal with them. 02:45 No, a lot of people are hardened, 02:47 not really wanting to deal with them. 02:49 And, you know, 02:52 we used to always point to the EU as being, 02:56 you know, this prophetically plays into prophecy, 02:59 but, you know, to me, 03:01 it seems like it's falling apart 03:02 in a different way. 03:04 Here in the United States, 03:06 I think what we're saying is a rise in nationalism. 03:12 Yeah. 03:13 Well, there's another word I can use but... 03:15 Well, I want to... 03:16 Jingoism. Jingoism. 03:18 But I want to differentiate there 03:21 between nationalism and patriotism. 03:24 Yes. 03:25 Very good point 03:27 because there's a legitimate difference. 03:28 Yes. 03:30 Being patriotic is someone who, "I love my country. 03:34 I want to support my country. 03:36 You know, I think Americans are all great 03:38 and, you know, let's, you know, wave the flag." 03:41 That's great. 03:42 Nationalism though has a component to it 03:49 that is more of a taking over. 03:54 Well, I can summarize it in a negative sense. 03:58 In the gas crisis in the 70s, 04:02 they were bumper stickers, America love it or leave it. 04:04 Yeah. 04:05 That's the sort of bad nationalism 04:07 that no country needs. 04:08 And I think we're getting a dose of again. 04:10 Yeah. 04:11 But it also incorporates into it 04:14 a taking over of the government, you know? 04:18 Well, it's national identity, 04:20 and then you get to define who's a real American. 04:22 Whose identity I can define it. Correct. 04:25 And how will it work out in the US remains to be seen. 04:28 In European countries, it's clearly ethnic, 04:32 and sometimes a religious identity 04:33 going back to the religious wars, 04:35 but usually ethnic. 04:36 So the, you know, 04:38 the real Germans and the interlopers 04:42 that came here either get rid of them 04:44 by expelling or maybe melt them down. 04:47 You mentioned something in another program that we did 04:50 about the fall of Russia 04:53 and removing Russia 04:57 as our common enemy here in the US. 05:00 Well, I remember Shevardnadze made a comment 05:02 in the waning days of the Soviet Union. 05:06 He's speaking to the media, he said, 05:08 "We are going to deprive you of an enemy." 05:10 That's a very distinct, and he did. 05:12 And they did. 05:13 But who's our new enemy? 05:15 So commonly we say, 05:18 maybe immigrants are our new enemy, 05:20 or the one that we really have issue with. 05:23 And you may comment to this as well. 05:27 Terrorists are our enemies. 05:29 Well, who's... 05:30 Sort of the bogeyman. 05:32 Yeah, who's created 05:33 the biggest terroristic threat to us? 05:35 Well, Islam. 05:36 Well, now you're not fighting a country, 05:39 you're fighting a religion. 05:41 And ultimately an idea. 05:43 An idea. 05:44 And so, you fight that idea with the opposing idea, 05:47 which is Christianity. 05:49 So are we saying 05:51 that in our move towards nationalism, 05:54 we're going to embrace Christian nationalism 05:58 in a way that brings Christian nationalism 06:02 to a leadership position above everything else? 06:07 That's the concern. It is an interesting question. 06:10 And I think you're getting closer 06:12 to what's going to happen here. 06:14 Nationalism in the modern era, 06:16 when it's played out like that 06:18 ends up with something like Italy, 06:20 fascism, 06:21 because it becomes worship of the state. 06:23 In the modern world, 06:25 the nation is the state because it's structured now. 06:28 It's military, it's business. 06:31 And that's fascism in a nutshell, right? 06:33 It was. 06:35 And so I do believe that in many ways, 06:36 the US is moving toward a fascist model, 06:39 except that it's a very religious country. 06:42 And a large fraction of the religious people 06:45 have, sort of, always blended their religion 06:48 and the destiny of this country. 06:49 Manifest Destiny, 06:51 when I was studying history that impressed me greatly. 06:53 Manifest destiny 06:55 was the thinly disguised religious triumphalism. 06:58 So it's coming together 07:00 in an interesting way in our day. 07:02 Nazi Germany rode to power on the back of nationalism. 07:07 Of course, yeah. 07:09 I mean, when you want to look at a recent example... 07:13 Well, it was National Socialism. 07:14 It was National Socialism. 07:16 That was the title of Nazism. 07:18 You to be a good German 07:20 you're gonna, you know, do this. 07:22 I saw a program the other day and the title really got me. 07:26 It said the Incredible Lightness 07:29 of Being a Nazi. 07:32 A sense of, sort of, 07:33 liberation of fulfillment and of exceptionalism. 07:37 Incredible lightness. 07:38 And I don't think 07:40 that lightness has come upon this continent yet, 07:43 but it could. 07:45 It sort of relieves you from moral obligation. 07:48 But don't we say the incredible lightness 07:50 of being a Christian? 07:52 Oh, yes, we say that. Yeah. 07:53 Well, we say that, right? Yeah. 07:55 Cast your burdens upon the Lord and you're free. 07:58 Yeah. You're free. You're free. 08:00 And again, I want to differentiate 08:03 patriotism is different than nationalism. 08:05 Yeah, I think patriotism 08:08 is a very reasonable expectation 08:10 even of a Christian, 08:11 in fact, especially of a Christian, 08:13 in whatever country. 08:14 You know, Paul said some things 08:17 that I think taken wrongly can be characterized as... 08:22 Got to be careful, what do I call it 08:24 a very subservient statements about the state. 08:28 That it's not true that the state yields the sword 08:30 always for justice. 08:31 No, does not. 08:33 But he did make a good point that we live in this world, 08:38 we have a responsibility as part of society 08:41 to what the rule is to support them 08:43 as, you know, 08:44 as they are doing their best in a country. 08:46 We can't double guess everything they do, 08:48 but I'm not really sure 08:50 that Caligula deserved the loyalty 08:51 of the Christians. 08:53 That's another question. 08:54 But there's no evidence that Christians rebelled 08:56 just because they didn't like a persecuting emperor. 08:59 So they were good as citizens, 09:01 as their Christian loyalties would enable them to be. 09:06 In a country 09:07 with the separation of church and state, 09:09 why shouldn't we be the best of citizens? 09:11 Yes. 09:12 And going back to the job of the state, 09:16 really the job of the state is, some people will say, 09:20 "To give you security," 09:22 but I disagree a little bit with that. 09:25 What I think the job of the state is, 09:27 is to provide justice. 09:30 You know, yes, there is some issues 09:33 of security involved, 09:35 but the job of the state is to provide justice, 09:38 the job of the Christian 09:41 is to defend and preserve liberty. 09:45 And, you know, we have to balance that 09:48 because everyone that lives in this society 09:52 should be part of this society. 09:55 And, you know, we talked earlier 09:57 about voting in another program. 09:59 And when we vote, 10:02 we vote to elect leaders who will provide us justice. 10:07 And when we vote, 10:09 we should vote for laws 10:11 that will uphold and defend freedom and liberty. 10:15 And this is kind of our... 10:17 It was an ideal that as I took an extreme, you know, 10:21 Caligula Roman Emperor, 10:22 but there's plenty of countries in the world 10:24 that from the outside 10:26 don't appear to be truly upholding justice, 10:29 certainly not liberty, 10:30 and certainly not religious liberty. 10:33 But I think a Christian are going to be careful 10:36 with our mixing, 10:39 Lord may kill or know the Bible but, you know, 10:40 living without a piece of bleach 10:44 as you can with other people. 10:46 Yeah, right. 10:47 That is a Christian idea. 10:49 We're not to cause rancor 10:51 with whatever the ruling system is, 10:53 and only respond I think, in a challenge 10:56 when it's restricting our worship of God. 11:00 So it's not in a general Christian sense, 11:03 a matter of us only supporting, 11:07 you know, a democratic Christian country. 11:09 But it's a matter of great happenstance, 11:12 most people living in the United States 11:13 live in a country that makes a high ideal 11:15 that it's going to defend separation of church and state, 11:19 it's going to defend the rights of the individual, 11:21 you know, all of the great norms 11:22 that we've gotten not just from in the US, 11:24 but from the history of the British Isles. 11:27 That's a good heritage. 11:29 It's as high an ideal 11:31 as I think as the world is seen in a secular sense. 11:34 So we have even more reason than usual 11:36 to be supportive of that. 11:39 Definitely. 11:41 But when I look at the rise of nationalism here, 11:45 this, of course, is a campaign. 11:48 It's a voting year. 11:49 It's a big election year in the country. 11:53 And I go back when I talk about this, 11:58 it's going to sound like I'm very liberal 12:01 in the way I'm talking. 12:03 But my basis and my understanding 12:05 in philosophy really comes 12:07 from a conservative biblical viewpoint. 12:11 And that is that we tend to wrap the Bible in the flag 12:16 and we tend to associate... 12:18 Not good. 12:19 Not good at all. 12:21 We tend to associate one political party 12:23 with a godly state 12:25 and the other political party with an ungodly state. 12:29 And if you remember in the Book of Joshua, 12:36 where the children of Israel 12:39 had just passed over the River Jordan, 12:41 and this is the second parting of a water 12:44 that they've crossed over at God's... 12:47 With the ark, yeah. Yeah, with the ark. 12:49 And later, 12:51 almost immediately after this happens, 12:54 the incarnate Christ comes and they say, 12:56 "Who are you? Are you for us or against us?" 13:00 And Jesus' reply is, 13:02 "I'm neither for nor against you." 13:04 He doesn't say, "I'm for you." Yeah, it's a good point. 13:06 Even though this miracle was just, 13:08 you know, done for them. 13:11 They crossed over and weren't attacked. 13:14 Well, didn't I follow shortly after? 13:18 Did it. 13:20 Where they made a preemptive strike 13:21 at their town in their own comfort and so, 13:24 they were sent packing. 13:26 They were sent packing going off. 13:28 But here is Christ incarnate 13:30 before His physical coming to earth. 13:35 And He specifically says, 13:37 "Look, I'm not for or against you." 13:41 Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. 13:42 And so for as Christians to say 13:45 this is what we're going to ride nationally 13:49 to enhance or to create a better understanding 13:52 of Christianity in our country. 13:55 It's very, very dangerous. 13:56 Yeah, well, it's a loaded time. 13:57 And, you know, I think, 14:00 you and I and many of our viewers 14:02 in the United States particularly 14:03 can share this trepidation. 14:06 Really what a lot of it is to be, got to be honest, 14:09 but to be direct, 14:10 I think is a fear of modernization, 14:13 the forces of modernization that are partly political, 14:16 partly mechanical, and demographic and so on. 14:22 You know, people of faith 14:23 and their faith perspective seem under great threat. 14:28 And this is my view 14:29 when nations when they're fading 14:31 and feeling weak, 14:33 people groups when they feel under threat 14:35 that they might disappear, 14:36 the numbers are declining, 14:37 that's when they do the most radical dangerous 14:39 and even violent things. 14:41 So that makes it by definition, a dangerous time. 14:43 Stay with us. 14:45 We'll be back after a short break 14:46 to continue what I think 14:48 is a hugely important discussion. |
Revised 2020-07-06