Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is your program
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for those of you
that follow this regularly
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and if not, then it is yours.
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And please stay with us
because this is your program,
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where we discuss
religious liberty
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in the United States very often
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and elsewhere in the world
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because religious liberty
is the hot topic for our time.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine,
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and my guest on this program,
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top religious liberty
expert Amireh Al Haddad.
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You're director
of Public Affairs
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and Religious Liberty
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for the Southern Union of
the Seventh-day Adventists.
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And I know you've been involved
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hands on level
for longer than me
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on Liberty Magazine,
25 years or so, isn't it?
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Yeah.
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So let's use,
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if not our experience
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then our
imagination on our worldview
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and let's just
looking at the world
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as a whole.
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How would you fit
the emerging concept
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in the US now
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or at least the
buzzword of nationalism?
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Is this a global phenomenon
or is it a passing phenomenon?
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What's going on?
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Because there's
clearly a nationalist buzz
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in Europe,
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and the United States,
and a few other countries.
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Well, I think we've
seen it just this year
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with the Brexit happening.
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People wanting to be
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their own
bosses again in Europe.
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I think that we're
seeing it in the US.
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I concentrate more
in the US with my job
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than I do around the world.
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But I definitely see
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that there are
issues that are happening.
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I remember about 25 years ago
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when the European Union
was, kind of, coming to,
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you know, formation
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and everybody was like saying...
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What did they call it before,
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it was the
European Common Market?
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Common Market, yeah.
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That was when I was a
kid, even in Australia,
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back in the early 60s.
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Yeah.
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It was very troubling
at a distance in Australia.
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They saw it as England
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deserting its
colonies and allies,
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and what do we call?
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Now I should remember
the Commonwealth of Nations,
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but England joined with Europe.
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And that seemed
like a done deal.
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Now England don't
want to deal with them.
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No, a lot of
people are hardened,
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not really
wanting to deal with them.
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And, you know,
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we used to always
point to the EU as being,
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you know, this prophetically
plays into prophecy,
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but, you know, to me,
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it seems like it's falling apart
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in a different way.
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Here in the United States,
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I think what we're
saying is a rise in nationalism.
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Yeah.
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Well, there's
another word I can use but...
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Well, I want to...
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Jingoism. Jingoism.
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But I want to
differentiate there
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between
nationalism and patriotism.
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Yes.
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Very good point
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because there's a
legitimate difference.
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Yes.
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Being patriotic is
someone who, "I love my country.
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I want to support my country.
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You know, I think
Americans are all great
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and, you know, let's,
you know, wave the flag."
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That's great.
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Nationalism though
has a component to it
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that is more of a taking over.
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Well, I can summarize
it in a negative sense.
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In the gas crisis in the 70s,
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they were bumper stickers,
America love it or leave it.
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Yeah.
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That's the sort
of bad nationalism
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that no country needs.
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And I think we're
getting a dose of again.
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Yeah.
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But it also incorporates into it
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a taking over of the
government, you know?
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Well, it's national identity,
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and then you get to
define who's a real American.
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Whose identity I
can define it. Correct.
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And how will it work out
in the US remains to be seen.
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In European
countries, it's clearly ethnic,
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and sometimes a
religious identity
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going back to
the religious wars,
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but usually ethnic.
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So the, you know,
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the real Germans
and the interlopers
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that came here
either get rid of them
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by expelling or
maybe melt them down.
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You mentioned something in
another program that we did
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about the fall of Russia
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and removing Russia
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as our common
enemy here in the US.
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Well, I remember
Shevardnadze made a comment
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in the waning days
of the Soviet Union.
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He's speaking to
the media, he said,
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"We are going to
deprive you of an enemy."
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That's a very
distinct, and he did.
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And they did.
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But who's our new enemy?
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So commonly we say,
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maybe immigrants
are our new enemy,
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or the one that we
really have issue with.
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And you may
comment to this as well.
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Terrorists are our enemies.
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Well, who's...
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Sort of the bogeyman.
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Yeah, who's created
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the biggest
terroristic threat to us?
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Well, Islam.
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Well, now you're
not fighting a country,
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you're fighting a religion.
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And ultimately an idea.
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An idea.
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And so, you fight that
idea with the opposing idea,
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which is Christianity.
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So are we saying
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that in our move
towards nationalism,
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we're going to
embrace Christian nationalism
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in a way that brings
Christian nationalism
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to a leadership
position above everything else?
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That's the concern. It
is an interesting question.
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And I think
you're getting closer
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to what's going to happen here.
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Nationalism in the modern era,
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when it's played out like that
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ends up with
something like Italy,
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fascism,
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because it becomes
worship of the state.
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In the modern world,
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the nation is the state
because it's structured now.
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It's military, it's business.
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And that's fascism
in a nutshell, right?
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It was.
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And so I do
believe that in many ways,
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the US is moving
toward a fascist model,
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except that it's a
very religious country.
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And a large fraction
of the religious people
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have, sort of, always
blended their religion
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and the destiny of this country.
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Manifest Destiny,
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when I was studying history
that impressed me greatly.
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Manifest destiny
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was the thinly disguised
religious triumphalism.
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So it's coming together
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in an
interesting way in our day.
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Nazi Germany rode to power
on the back of nationalism.
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Of course, yeah.
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I mean, when you want to
look at a recent example...
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Well, it was National Socialism.
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It was National Socialism.
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That was the title of Nazism.
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You to be a good German
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you're gonna, you know, do this.
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I saw a program the other
day and the title really got me.
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It said the Incredible Lightness
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of Being a Nazi.
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A sense of, sort of,
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liberation of fulfillment
and of exceptionalism.
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Incredible lightness.
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And I don't think
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that lightness has come
upon this continent yet,
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but it could.
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It sort of relieves
you from moral obligation.
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But don't we say
the incredible lightness
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of being a Christian?
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Oh, yes, we say that. Yeah.
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Well, we say that, right? Yeah.
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Cast your burdens upon
the Lord and you're free.
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Yeah. You're free. You're free.
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And again, I
want to differentiate
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patriotism is
different than nationalism.
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Yeah, I think patriotism
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is a very reasonable expectation
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even of a Christian,
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in fact,
especially of a Christian,
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in whatever country.
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You know, Paul said some things
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that I think taken wrongly
can be characterized as...
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Got to be
careful, what do I call it
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a very subservient
statements about the state.
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That it's not true that
the state yields the sword
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always for justice.
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No, does not.
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But he did make a good point
that we live in this world,
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we have a responsibility
as part of society
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to what the rule
is to support them
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as, you know,
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as they are doing
their best in a country.
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We can't double
guess everything they do,
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but I'm not really sure
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that Caligula
deserved the loyalty
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of the Christians.
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That's another question.
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But there's no evidence
that Christians rebelled
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just because they didn't
like a persecuting emperor.
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So they were good as citizens,
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as their Christian loyalties
would enable them to be.
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In a country
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with the separation
of church and state,
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why shouldn't we be
the best of citizens?
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Yes.
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And going back to
the job of the state,
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really the job of the
state is, some people will say,
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"To give you security,"
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but I disagree a
little bit with that.
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What I think the
job of the state is,
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is to provide justice.
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You know, yes,
there is some issues
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of security involved,
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but the job of the
state is to provide justice,
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the job of the Christian
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is to defend and
preserve liberty.
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And, you know, we
have to balance that
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because everyone
that lives in this society
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should be part of this society.
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And, you know, we talked earlier
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about voting in another program.
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And when we vote,
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we vote to elect leaders
who will provide us justice.
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And when we vote,
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we should vote for laws
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that will uphold and
defend freedom and liberty.
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And this is kind of our...
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It was an ideal that as I
took an extreme, you know,
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Caligula Roman Emperor,
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but there's plenty of
countries in the world
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that from the outside
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don't appear to be
truly upholding justice,
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certainly not liberty,
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and certainly not
religious liberty.
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But I think a Christian
are going to be careful
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with our mixing,
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Lord may kill or know
the Bible but, you know,
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living without a piece of bleach
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as you can with other people.
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Yeah, right.
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That is a Christian idea.
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We're not to cause rancor
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with whatever
the ruling system is,
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and only respond I
think, in a challenge
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when it's
restricting our worship of God.
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So it's not in a
general Christian sense,
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a matter of us only supporting,
00:11:03.56\00:11:07.13
you know, a
democratic Christian country.
00:11:07.16\00:11:09.26
But it's a matter
of great happenstance,
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most people living
in the United States
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live in a country
that makes a high ideal
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that it's going to defend
separation of church and state,
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it's going to defend the
rights of the individual,
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you know, all of the great norms
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that we've gotten
not just from in the US,
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but from the history
of the British Isles.
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That's a good heritage.
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It's as high an ideal
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as I think as the world
is seen in a secular sense.
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So we have even
more reason than usual
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to be supportive of that.
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Definitely.
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But when I look at the
rise of nationalism here,
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this, of course, is a campaign.
00:11:45.63\00:11:48.20
It's a voting year.
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It's a big election
year in the country.
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And I go back
when I talk about this,
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it's going to sound
like I'm very liberal
00:11:58.48\00:12:01.52
in the way I'm talking.
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But my basis
and my understanding
00:12:03.02\00:12:05.29
in philosophy really comes
00:12:05.32\00:12:07.46
from a
conservative biblical viewpoint.
00:12:07.49\00:12:11.16
And that is that we tend
to wrap the Bible in the flag
00:12:11.19\00:12:16.90
and we tend to associate...
00:12:16.93\00:12:18.27
Not good.
00:12:18.30\00:12:19.63
Not good at all.
00:12:19.67\00:12:21.00
We tend to
associate one political party
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with a godly state
00:12:23.37\00:12:25.57
and the other political
party with an ungodly state.
00:12:25.61\00:12:29.74
And if you remember
in the Book of Joshua,
00:12:29.78\00:12:36.18
where the children of Israel
00:12:36.22\00:12:38.99
had just passed
over the River Jordan,
00:12:39.02\00:12:41.62
and this is the
second parting of a water
00:12:41.66\00:12:44.69
that they've
crossed over at God's...
00:12:44.73\00:12:47.10
With the ark,
yeah. Yeah, with the ark.
00:12:47.13\00:12:49.26
And later,
00:12:49.30\00:12:51.90
almost immediately
after this happens,
00:12:51.93\00:12:54.00
the incarnate
Christ comes and they say,
00:12:54.04\00:12:56.94
"Who are you? Are you
for us or against us?"
00:12:56.97\00:13:00.41
And Jesus' reply is,
00:13:00.44\00:13:02.14
"I'm neither for
nor against you."
00:13:02.18\00:13:04.71
He doesn't say, "I'm for
you." Yeah, it's a good point.
00:13:04.75\00:13:06.18
Even though this
miracle was just,
00:13:06.21\00:13:08.48
you know, done for them.
00:13:08.52\00:13:11.22
They crossed over
and weren't attacked.
00:13:11.25\00:13:14.72
Well, didn't I
follow shortly after?
00:13:14.76\00:13:18.73
Did it.
00:13:18.76\00:13:20.10
Where they made
a preemptive strike
00:13:20.13\00:13:21.86
at their town in
their own comfort and so,
00:13:21.90\00:13:24.60
they were sent packing.
00:13:24.63\00:13:25.97
They were sent
packing going off.
00:13:26.00\00:13:28.00
But here is Christ incarnate
00:13:28.04\00:13:30.37
before His
physical coming to earth.
00:13:30.41\00:13:35.24
And He specifically says,
00:13:35.28\00:13:37.65
"Look, I'm not
for or against you."
00:13:37.68\00:13:41.02
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point.
00:13:41.05\00:13:42.38
And so for as Christians to say
00:13:42.42\00:13:45.15
this is what we're
going to ride nationally
00:13:45.19\00:13:49.49
to enhance or to
create a better understanding
00:13:49.52\00:13:52.79
of Christianity in our country.
00:13:52.83\00:13:54.96
It's very, very dangerous.
00:13:55.00\00:13:56.33
Yeah, well, it's a loaded time.
00:13:56.36\00:13:57.70
And, you know, I think,
00:13:57.73\00:14:00.07
you and I and
many of our viewers
00:14:00.10\00:14:02.34
in the United
States particularly
00:14:02.37\00:14:03.71
can share this trepidation.
00:14:03.74\00:14:06.14
Really what a lot of it
is to be, got to be honest,
00:14:06.17\00:14:09.58
but to be direct,
00:14:09.61\00:14:10.95
I think is a
fear of modernization,
00:14:10.98\00:14:13.28
the forces of modernization
that are partly political,
00:14:13.31\00:14:16.48
partly mechanical,
and demographic and so on.
00:14:16.52\00:14:22.36
You know, people of faith
00:14:22.39\00:14:23.73
and their faith perspective
seem under great threat.
00:14:23.76\00:14:28.06
And this is my view
00:14:28.10\00:14:29.43
when nations when they're fading
00:14:29.46\00:14:31.93
and feeling weak,
00:14:31.97\00:14:33.30
people groups when
they feel under threat
00:14:33.34\00:14:35.07
that they might disappear,
00:14:35.10\00:14:36.44
the numbers are declining,
00:14:36.47\00:14:37.81
that's when they do
the most radical dangerous
00:14:37.84\00:14:39.64
and even violent things.
00:14:39.67\00:14:41.34
So that makes it by
definition, a dangerous time.
00:14:41.38\00:14:43.81
Stay with us.
00:14:43.85\00:14:45.18
We'll be back
after a short break
00:14:45.21\00:14:46.55
to continue what I think
00:14:46.58\00:14:48.55
is a hugely
important discussion.
00:14:48.58\00:14:50.69