Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI200466B
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00:01 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:02 This is Lincoln Steed with guest Amireh Al Haddad 00:06 and the hot topic, 00:08 where probably, 00:10 the switchboards are gonna light up 00:11 like crazy when this goes lo. 00:13 No, I hope so, but not with antagonism. 00:15 I hope there's agreement, 00:18 at least with our general position, 00:19 there's serious issues 00:21 and we need to have some more than tolerance. 00:24 We need to have understanding, clarification. 00:27 And with Christians a little priority setting 00:29 that this is the here and now, but we set for another kingdom, 00:32 but we have to be 00:34 responsible citizens of this one. 00:36 And talking about another kingdom, 00:38 you know, when our church was being formed in the 1860s, 00:43 we were in the middle of a civil war. 00:45 And whose side are you gonna support? 00:49 How do you receive tithes and offerings 00:52 in Confederate money? 00:54 You know, we're trying to organize 00:57 the church in the middle of a civil war. 01:00 I've often spoken about this dynamic, 01:03 but I'd never thought 01:04 what happened to the Confederate money 01:05 that the church must have gotten 01:07 at some point with antagonist. 01:08 How do you manage it when you're one country, 01:11 but you've got two monetary systems going on? 01:14 And they clearly had views on it. 01:16 I mean, Ellen White 01:18 wrote very plainly that God's... 01:19 She says, "God's punishment rested on the south 01:22 for its embrace of slavery." 01:23 That's a pretty damning statement. 01:24 It is. 01:26 And yet at the same time, 01:27 to me, it's always very significant. 01:29 That's precisely the moment the church developed 01:31 its non-combatancy stance. 01:32 It is. 01:34 So they clearly made the super clear decision 01:37 to stay out of the political fray. 01:39 Well, they believe that the United States 01:41 was Babylon or would be. 01:45 Had become. It had become Babylon. 01:47 Isn't that strike you. Yes. 01:49 And, you know, it does shape the way 01:53 you interact with your government. 01:57 You know, we were coming from a position 01:59 where Liberty Insider is just really dealing with US 02:03 a little bit of Canada sometimes, but... 02:06 Well, then I get onto other topics... 02:08 Into other topics so... 02:10 I didn't wanna take you to the Middle East. 02:12 Remember... I know, I know. 02:14 I didn't wanna go to different places today, 02:18 but we have had a history 02:21 where there have been members 02:23 who felt like 02:25 they were gonna abstain from voting 02:27 because of the conflict 02:29 that they felt brought upon them by voting, 02:34 you know, and then 02:35 there was another time when Ellen G. White 02:39 wrote about the fact 02:40 that it was incumbent upon us to vote 02:43 as she was particularly talking about temperance. 02:47 You grew up with temperance in your household. 02:49 Yeah. 02:50 My father was the temperance directive, 02:52 and he lived and breathed that. 02:53 And I've read the book Temperance a few times, 02:56 which is a compilation bit of statements 02:59 that Ellen White made on the temperance topic. 03:01 Now she said it was such an important topic, 03:03 if need be vote on the Sabbath. 03:05 Yes. 03:06 Which you're gonna really think that one through 03:09 with Seventh-day Adventists. 03:10 And we keep the Sabbath very holy. 03:12 And you spend a lot of your time 03:14 seeking exemptions in the workplace 03:17 for Adventists who can't work, 03:19 can't do secular activities, 03:20 but she saw 03:21 this is a very high moral cause. 03:23 And as Jesus pointed out, you do good on the Sabbath, 03:26 that's a calling. 03:28 It's not the time to go into hibernation, 03:31 although some people do this risk. 03:32 What does it, lay activities? 03:34 Yeah. Yeah. 03:35 There was one very particular time 03:37 when there was a meritorial vote 03:40 in Battle Creek. 03:42 And the Battle Creek mayor 03:44 was seen to have been this very disreputable, 03:47 womanizer, drunk, 03:49 you know, and he was sure he was gonna get back in 03:52 because Election Day was on Sabbath. 03:56 And Ellen White said, 03:58 "You need to go and vote this man out, 04:00 even on the Sabbath day." 04:02 He was sure he was gonna get back in 04:04 because he knew Adventist would not go 04:06 vote on Sabbath. 04:08 You know, of course, I say... 04:09 It happens, but it gets into a gray area 04:11 because the Moral Majority as they came to power, 04:15 I think one of the worst aspects 04:17 of their growing political involvement 04:18 was these voter lists picking, 04:21 having targets to defeat politically or electorally 04:26 because of their views on abortion usually. 04:30 And, you know, I don't think 04:32 it's a problem with Adventists and most Christians, 04:34 we see abortion and other modern... 04:38 How could I characterize them, 04:40 other modern light-hearted looks at life 04:42 and the seriousness of God's creation? 04:44 You know, is not good, 04:46 but to be one notice 04:48 and to be so militant politically 04:51 that you'll tear them down at any cost 04:53 even voting on Sabbath 04:55 makes me a little uncomfortable. 04:57 Well, and luckily we also say, 05:01 just because someone else tells you to do it, 05:03 doesn't mean that you have to violate 05:05 your conscience. 05:06 Right. 05:07 And as you know, 05:09 our religious liberty department 05:10 and our church has never directed 05:11 voters generally. 05:13 I know there was a comment of Ellen White, 05:14 but she was not church dictator. 05:16 No! Not at all. 05:17 She was a spiritual voice advisor, 05:18 and one of the pioneers. 05:21 No, I think it's a safe course. 05:24 It's a moral course, it's a list of New Testament, 05:28 biblically defensible course, 05:30 that the church is not in politics directly 05:33 and not pushing the members to any particular viewpoint. 05:36 And we've had this back and forth 05:38 where we say not to vote, 05:39 then go vote on Sabbath back and forth. 05:42 And so what happened was, 05:44 finally we kind of got together and we said, 05:46 "Look, we need to understand that we can't prove or disprove 05:51 whether a Christian should vote or not vote 05:53 on the Bible." 05:54 And because you can't prove it 05:56 in the Bible or disprove it in the Bible, 05:58 we're gonna tell people 05:59 we leave this to each individual to do. 06:03 And, you know, in some things like this 06:05 are clearly not moral or immoral in themselves. 06:09 It's how you go about that activity. 06:11 And that's a matter of conscience 06:12 and we'll stand before God 06:14 and I know it seems crazy to some, but you could, 06:18 two people could almost do the same thing 06:20 and one could be condemned by God 06:21 and their conscience 06:22 and the other person God could say there, 06:25 like indicative of David, 06:27 a man after my heart or a woman after my own heart, 06:30 so at the end of the day, it's a heart response, 06:33 but we enter into enchanted ground, 06:36 I think by becoming 06:38 politically motivated as Christians 06:41 at the expense of our Christian identity 06:43 and our Christian aspirations. 06:45 True. 06:46 And when we look at it overall, 06:50 what we really need to understand is 06:52 that from our perspective, 06:55 we need to remember that it doesn't matter 06:57 if you're a republican or a democrat. 06:59 What you should tell people when they say, "What are you?" 07:03 You should say, "I'm a Christian." 07:06 If we identified more as being a Christian, 07:08 rather than a political party, 07:10 I think that we would be so much further along. 07:14 And... 07:15 I agree with you. Contentment and understanding. 07:17 You know, he's become a bit of a leper at the moment, 07:19 but Mitt Romney's speech, 07:21 and you could argue 07:22 whether or not he should have voted 07:23 the way he did, 07:25 but as a human being and a person of faith, 07:26 I appreciated the way that he laid out the fact 07:28 that he was acting 07:30 on his conscience as a Christian. 07:32 Yeah. 07:34 Not be wrong, but I mean, about how he acted, 07:37 but I saw conscience of work there, 07:40 he was thinking deeply 07:41 and so each Christian should do that, 07:43 don't you think? 07:44 Definitely. 07:45 If each and every one of us were to act 07:47 on our own conscience 07:48 and our own understanding of the Bible, 07:51 then we would probably all be a lot better off, 07:54 but the problem comes 07:56 when we decide that we're gonna form ourselves 08:00 or connect ourselves with people 08:02 that are based on a political party system 08:06 rather than the system of God and Jesus' kingdom in heaven. 08:11 So always keep in mind. 08:16 Voting in the Old Testament 08:18 was a little bit different affair 08:20 than in the modern voting booth 08:22 and the numbers and the parties 08:24 and the precincts and so on. 08:27 I can remember reading with interest 08:30 when Saul was voted king of Israel 08:35 against God's wishes and the prophets' wishes. 08:38 And yet curiously, he was the one chosen. 08:42 It is a mistake, I think, 08:43 in our modern system 08:45 to imagine that any elected leader 08:48 is automatically one chosen by God, 08:51 but it's also a mistake to think 08:53 that to stand back 08:55 and to allow a democratic society 08:58 to choose its leaders 09:00 without any input from Christian sensibility 09:04 is an ideal thing. 09:05 The Christians are to be light and salt, 09:10 and any number of figures that show 09:12 that they influence the society they live in. 09:15 And to be the best of citizens, 09:17 even as in everything about their life 09:21 and comportment they show 09:22 that they are citizens of a far kingdom, 09:24 a coming kingdom, 09:26 God's eternal kingdom of grace 09:29 that is promised to each of us. 09:32 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2020-06-25