Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI200465A
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00:27 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:30 This is the program that you can watch 00:32 with confidence to get some insights, 00:35 information and perhaps stimulation 00:38 on your thinking about religious liberty 00:40 in the US and around the world. 00:42 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:45 And my guest on this program Amireh Al Haddad. 00:49 Sounds a foreign name, 00:50 but you're homegrown girl 00:52 from living near Atlanta, right? 00:55 Yes, I say I have a cornbread accent. 00:58 Yeah, I think you do. 01:00 But you're the Director 01:02 for Public Affairs and Religious Liberty 01:03 for the Southern Union 01:05 of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, 01:06 which as it says is the whole Southern Union. 01:07 How many states? 01:09 Eight states. Eight states. 01:10 The Bible Belt basically. 01:12 The buckle of the Bible Belt. Yeah, yeah. 01:13 Yeah. 01:15 Serve a very important area 01:16 for religion and religious liberty, 01:19 which is always an important topic in the US. 01:22 The US is a strange country in many ways. 01:26 You know, I came as a teenager to the US. 01:28 And so I've been studying it ever since. 01:30 On one level, it's with Hollywood 01:33 and all the rest is leading the way 01:34 for worldliness and consumption, 01:37 you know, consumerism and modernity. 01:40 And yet on another level, 01:42 which you know when you go to the beats 01:43 with the long swimmers and all the rest, 01:45 it's very prudish country, 01:47 and partly because its vein of religiosity is very strong. 01:54 Church attendance is higher in other places. 01:57 And while it's a diverse community, 01:59 not even majority Protestants, I think anymore. 02:03 This was once a Protestant beachhead 02:06 in the new world, 02:08 leaving the old world 02:10 and as a direct consequence of the Reformation. 02:13 So I want to talk with you 02:15 a little bit about the Reformation 02:16 and what it might have produced from then on out. 02:20 You know, when was the... 02:24 It's 2017, wasn't it that we celebrated 02:26 500 years since Columbus? 02:28 Yes, right. 02:29 And I tried to... 02:30 Five hundred years from the Protestant. 02:32 Not from... Luther pinning his... 02:34 Luther, want to say Columbus, 02:35 you were talking about for Martin Luther. 02:37 Right. 02:38 And that always troubles me a little bit 02:39 because the Reformation was a huge event. 02:43 Didn't quite begin with Luther nor did it end with him. 02:46 And I have no challenge with him 02:48 being sort of a linchpin to it. 02:50 But how do you see it? 02:53 Who else sort of fires your imagination 02:55 when you think of the Reformation? 02:57 I, you know, when I think of the Reformation, 03:00 I think of a lot of different things, 03:03 you know, the great reformers, 03:06 William of Orange 03:08 who also known as William the Silent. 03:10 You're coming good. 03:11 For a second I thought you're gonna see, 03:12 you were starting on, 03:14 you started reading many newspapers 03:15 that I can even see Russia. 03:17 I couldn't miss it, not worth reviewing, 03:19 remembering that. 03:21 But you're right, there's many in, 03:22 that was a very good choice. 03:23 Yeah. 03:25 I'm trying to think 03:26 were you on our Liberty bus tour? 03:28 I was. Yeah. 03:29 You remember the stone wall there? 03:30 The wall of the reformers in Geneva. 03:32 I think that's what you're thinking back. 03:33 And that was very gratifying to me 03:35 because one of my heroes was front and center, 03:38 Oliver Cromwell. 03:39 Oliver Cromwell, yes. 03:41 A lot of people wouldn't even put him in there, 03:42 but I think he belongs there. 03:44 Oliver Cromwell is what died very hated, 03:48 as you probably know, 03:50 but he's actually now considered 03:52 one of the most beloved of British. 03:56 Well, thank you, you make my day 03:58 because I'm very passive to him. 04:00 There's no question 04:01 that historians have been tough with him 04:03 and I think to some degree 04:05 influenced by the continuing view 04:07 of the Roman Catholic Church, 04:08 which with some reason hates him. 04:11 You know, his actions in Ireland, 04:15 you can't defend very much. 04:17 And, of course, he was the arch Protestant 04:18 and so he's going to get a rough treatment. 04:22 But, you know, 04:24 like many other persons in history, 04:26 he was warts and all, 04:27 and there were a few 04:29 really literally had a big wart. 04:33 But yes, I think he was one of the heroes. 04:35 Who were some of the other ones? 04:36 Roger Williams, so you picked Cromwell, 04:39 because he's British. 04:40 I'm picking Roger Williams as my favorite 04:43 because, of course, he came to America. 04:45 And do you know 04:47 that there's a Cromwell connection 04:48 with Roger Williams? 04:49 No, I didn't know that. He was... 04:51 He knew Oliver Cromwell. 04:53 And, in fact, Roger Williams was more than a protege, 04:59 almost the adopted son of Lord Coke, 05:05 or Coke I think is the way to say it, but C-O-K-E. 05:08 He was the Chief Justice of England, 05:11 who just before the Civil War 05:14 really started the questioning of the king's authority. 05:17 He was the one that made the statement, 05:18 "an Englishman's home is his castle, " 05:21 which is really derivative 05:24 or begins the ideas 05:25 at which the US Constitution is derivative, 05:27 that you have individual rights 05:29 and, you know, the power resides with you, 05:33 not with the king. 05:34 And as the Civil War loomed and came, 05:37 Coke pushed the issue more. 05:39 In fact, he was sent to the tower by... 05:45 I think Charles himself sent him to the tower, 05:47 but you know he was in prison for a while, so he, 05:49 you know, he really pushed the envelope, 05:51 but then as it morphed into the Civil War 05:54 and Cromwell took over, 05:56 Roger Williams came back to England, 05:59 and spent some time there 06:00 and met with Cromwell several times, 06:02 and gave some arguments 06:04 in favor of what they were trying to do. 06:07 So it's not like a separate. 06:08 This is what my burden on American history, 06:10 it didn't happen in a bubble, 06:12 like the rest of history was immaterial. 06:14 There was cross fertilization, 06:17 and particularly at the time of the Civil War, 06:20 which was an English part of the English Reformation. 06:23 It really was the Puritans coming to power 06:26 and crossing the line 06:28 which you're arguing against 06:29 about the separation of church and state, 06:31 but they've merged the religion 06:33 and the state power in a bad way. 06:35 But then keep in mind 06:36 also that we're not talking about 06:39 when we're talking about this, 06:40 we're talking about before the US was the US. 06:43 We're talking about the 1600s, 06:45 we're not talking about the 1700's. 06:46 It was a vibrant settlement, 06:48 but no, it was roughly 100 years 06:51 before the American War of Independence. 06:52 Yeah, definitely. 06:54 But, correctly, 06:56 I think Roger Williams is seen as the Father 06:58 if anyone is of religious liberty 07:00 on this continent, 07:02 and yet his connections would direct. 07:04 In fact, I've got a book 07:07 about Roger Williams and Cromwell, 07:09 the two figures, yeah. 07:10 Nice. 07:11 So when, you know, we went in 2014, 07:15 doesn't seem like that long ago. 07:18 And when I came back to the US, 07:20 I was talking to one of my uncle's, 07:24 he's a Presbyterian. 07:25 And he said, you know, 07:28 I don't remember anything 07:29 about the Protestant Reformation. 07:32 And he's a Protestant, I mean he's a Presbyterian. 07:35 And I said, "I think a lot of Americans 07:38 don't understand what happened during that time period 07:43 ending with each of the top five reformers. 07:46 And in a nutshell, 07:48 that's what I think is the looming danger. 07:50 Yes. 07:52 As far as religion, 07:54 they've forgotten the Reformation. 07:56 As far as American governance, they have forgotten 08:00 if they ever knew the Constitution, 08:02 so I'm getting on my soapbox a bit now. 08:07 In our department, we deal with legal challenges 08:09 and defending and through the Supreme Court, 08:11 that's all necessary. 08:12 But I think 08:14 that's sort of fiddling on the decks of the Titanic. 08:17 If you don't address 08:19 what is clearly happened on the religious front 08:21 and the political front 08:23 where people don't know corporately 08:25 the models that their system of church state 08:28 and of governance is based on. 08:32 It's inevitable unless you somehow 08:34 can recover that group memory 08:37 and awareness of the importance of these issues. 08:40 It's inevitable. 08:41 It will drift away. 08:43 And what's worrisome to us is, 08:44 and I'm sure a lot of Christians 08:46 pick up on this, 08:48 but they don't realize 08:49 how far back in history it goes. 08:52 Is that there, 08:54 I mean, you pretty much have to live 08:56 in a cave and not have any access 08:58 to any kind of media to not realize 09:03 the battle that's going on between religious liberty 09:06 and other people groups' rights, 09:10 in particular LGBTQ rights. 09:13 And what we need to remember is that 09:16 before we were even founded, 09:18 one of the main issues 09:21 that our founders and the reformers 09:24 had to deal with 09:26 was this issue of religious freedom. 09:29 Roger Williams fled England. 09:32 He was an Anabaptist, 09:34 he came to the US and it wasn't a US at the time, 09:38 came to the new world to the colonies. 09:40 Well, he didn't quite flee. 09:42 He didn't like the climate. He didn't like the climate. 09:44 And when he arrived, 09:46 he was offered the ministerial post 09:50 at the main church, 09:51 one of the main churches in, was it in Boston? 09:53 Must have been in Boston. 09:55 He eventually became 09:56 the first governor of Rhode Island. 09:57 Yeah, yes, which he established, 09:59 but he didn't like that, he was quite independent, 10:01 so he turned that down. 10:02 And that was the start of a frosty relationship 10:06 that in the end, yeah, he had go to Rhode Island. 10:07 Yeah, he went away. 10:09 And he... 10:10 Because he was a revolutionary. 10:12 He was revolutionary. 10:15 He hung out a little bit 10:16 with the Native Americans of the time. 10:19 And one of the things that he recognized 10:21 that the colonists were doing 10:24 was kind of imposing their religion 10:26 upon the Native Americans in the colonies. 10:31 And he also came up with this... 10:33 Not to mention imposing their religion 10:35 on the slaves. 10:36 On the slaves, yes. 10:37 Which we could have a whole program on that. 10:40 You probably have two programs for that. 10:43 But he also was the father of the idea of soul liberty. 10:48 And if you've ever had 10:49 one of the Baptist Joint Committee people 10:51 on, I'm sure, they talked about... 10:52 Yes, over the years a few times, but not recently. 10:54 Yeah, they talk about soul liberty, 10:56 and he's the one 10:58 who Thomas Jefferson took the understanding 11:02 of the separation 11:04 between church and state from. 11:05 So Roger Williams compared the state to the wilderness 11:10 and the church to a garden. 11:13 And he said, "You have to have a wall 11:15 that keeps the wilderness from the beauty of the garden. 11:19 And these are all important. 11:21 This is saying 11:22 like the current political elect. 11:24 No, I'm just thinking... 11:25 These are all important to religious liberty. 11:27 I mean the wall outside the border. 11:29 And we have this long history of them in America 11:33 that we need to continue to protect 11:36 even though we have this clash 11:38 that's going on 11:40 between the rights of other groups 11:42 and the rights of religion. 11:43 I think that all people need to realize 11:46 that one of the fundamental issues 11:50 of a civilized society 11:52 is this understanding 11:55 that religion will be protected. 11:57 And the reformers knew that, 11:59 the Reformation once seem nothing. 12:00 Yes, and I think that is the single takeaway 12:04 that still sort of understood in the US. 12:08 But that's what lies between us and religious factionalism 12:12 and perhaps a triumphal in run by one group. 12:18 And as I've thought about it before, 12:19 you know, human nature is a constant everywhere 12:22 and religions since, if whichever one you belong to, 12:25 they by and large believes that they have the truth, 12:27 they have the access to heaven 12:29 and in varying degrees by definition 12:31 outsiders are either unwashed ignorant people 12:35 or worse, the devil's minions. 12:37 So, you know, things can get pretty dicey 12:39 between the ins and the outs. 12:41 And in Europe where you have a whole country 12:44 or a principality of one religion, 12:49 you know, then they could be violent and vicious 12:51 toward the other or if someone came in. 12:54 The US has been spared 12:56 that not because people are more tolerant 12:57 in my view, 12:59 but because there hasn't been a monolithic, 13:02 super majoritarian religious group. 13:05 I mean, Protestantism was the prevailing viewpoint, 13:07 but it was factionalized to the limit. 13:10 And so even today, 13:12 you can see little pockets of influence 13:15 of different religious groups around, 13:16 not to mention all the independence 13:18 and the mega churches 13:19 that are sort of their own subset of religion. 13:24 And that's good. 13:25 I think that's meant the certain respect 13:28 and tolerance is automatic, 13:30 otherwise you can't do business. 13:31 But we don't want to allow 13:33 this growth of a monolithic center 13:36 that clearly will then function like the old world 13:39 or as the established church did against Luther. 13:42 If they'd had half a chance when he rose up 13:44 and questioned their theology, 13:46 they'd burned him at the stake pronto. 13:50 The point that I bring out 13:51 is they were facing imminent invasion 13:54 or not imminent, 13:56 hundreds of individual invasions 13:58 from the Islamic South 14:01 was threatening the very existence of Europe. 14:03 So the rulers needed the support 14:06 of all the princelings 14:07 and they couldn't afford to offend Luther's protector. 14:10 The Electorate of Saxony, isn't it? 14:12 Yeah, Saxon, yeah. 14:13 So, you know, thereby, you know, 14:16 he was able to be sheltered. 14:17 But it was just 14:19 an interesting convergence of events that he survived. 14:22 And he did fear for his life very much. 14:24 I think his life was at risk 14:26 and that's why he was in essence 14:29 kidnapped for his protection, I think. 14:32 You know, it's interesting to me, 14:33 I read histories and the... 14:38 You know on the medieval model, 14:39 they would take hostages and prisoners 14:42 and they would be redeemed 14:43 and all the rest that sounded good, 14:45 they come under a white flag. 14:46 But there's plenty of cases 14:47 where those things were not honored. 14:49 Someone would come with a white flag 14:50 and they'd cut the emissary's head off. 14:52 We'll take a break and be back shortly. 14:53 Stay with us. |
Revised 2020-06-18