Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the
program that you can watch
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with confidence
to get some insights,
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information and
perhaps stimulation
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on your thinking
about religious liberty
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine.
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And my guest on this
program Amireh Al Haddad.
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Sounds a foreign name,
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but you're homegrown girl
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from living near Atlanta, right?
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Yes, I say I have
a cornbread accent.
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Yeah, I think you do.
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But you're the Director
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for Public Affairs
and Religious Liberty
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for the Southern Union
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of the
Seventh-day Adventist Church,
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which as it says is
the whole Southern Union.
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How many states?
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Eight states. Eight states.
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The Bible Belt basically.
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The buckle of the
Bible Belt. Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah.
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Serve a very important area
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for religion and
religious liberty,
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which is always an
important topic in the US.
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The US is a strange
country in many ways.
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You know, I came as
a teenager to the US.
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And so I've been
studying it ever since.
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On one level,
it's with Hollywood
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and all the rest
is leading the way
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for worldliness and consumption,
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you know,
consumerism and modernity.
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And yet on another level,
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which you know
when you go to the beats
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with the long
swimmers and all the rest,
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it's very prudish country,
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and partly because its vein
of religiosity is very strong.
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Church attendance is
higher in other places.
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And while it's a
diverse community,
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not even majority
Protestants, I think anymore.
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This was once a
Protestant beachhead
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in the new world,
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leaving the old world
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and as a direct
consequence of the Reformation.
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So I want to talk with you
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a little bit
about the Reformation
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and what it might have
produced from then on out.
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You know, when was the...
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It's 2017, wasn't
it that we celebrated
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500 years since Columbus?
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Yes, right.
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And I tried to...
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Five hundred years
from the Protestant.
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Not from...
Luther pinning his...
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Luther, want to say Columbus,
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you were talking
about for Martin Luther.
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Right.
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And that always
troubles me a little bit
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because the
Reformation was a huge event.
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Didn't quite begin with
Luther nor did it end with him.
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And I have no challenge with him
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being sort of a linchpin to it.
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But how do you see it?
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Who else sort of
fires your imagination
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when you think
of the Reformation?
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I, you know, when I
think of the Reformation,
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I think of a lot
of different things,
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you know, the great reformers,
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William of Orange
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who also known as
William the Silent.
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You're coming good.
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For a second I
thought you're gonna see,
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you were starting on,
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you started
reading many newspapers
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that I can even see Russia.
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I couldn't miss it,
not worth reviewing,
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remembering that.
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But you're
right, there's many in,
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that was a very good choice.
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Yeah.
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I'm trying to think
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were you on our
Liberty bus tour?
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I was. Yeah.
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You remember the
stone wall there?
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The wall of the
reformers in Geneva.
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I think that's what
you're thinking back.
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And that was
very gratifying to me
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because one of my
heroes was front and center,
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Oliver Cromwell.
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Oliver Cromwell, yes.
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A lot of people
wouldn't even put him in there,
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but I think he belongs there.
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Oliver Cromwell is
what died very hated,
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as you probably know,
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but he's actually now considered
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one of the most
beloved of British.
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Well, thank you, you make my day
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because I'm very passive to him.
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There's no question
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that historians
have been tough with him
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and I think to some degree
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influenced by
the continuing view
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of the Roman Catholic Church,
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which with some
reason hates him.
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You know, his
actions in Ireland,
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you can't defend very much.
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And, of course, he
was the arch Protestant
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and so he's going to
get a rough treatment.
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But, you know,
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like many other
persons in history,
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he was warts and all,
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and there were a few
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really literally had a big wart.
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But yes, I think he
was one of the heroes.
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Who were some of the other ones?
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Roger Williams, so
you picked Cromwell,
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because he's British.
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I'm picking Roger
Williams as my favorite
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because, of
course, he came to America.
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And do you know
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that there's a
Cromwell connection
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with Roger Williams?
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No, I didn't
know that. He was...
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He knew Oliver Cromwell.
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And, in fact, Roger Williams
was more than a protege,
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almost the
adopted son of Lord Coke,
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or Coke I think is the
way to say it, but C-O-K-E.
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He was the Chief
Justice of England,
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who just before the Civil War
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really started the questioning
of the king's authority.
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He was the one
that made the statement,
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"an Englishman's
home is his castle, "
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which is really derivative
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or begins the ideas
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at which the US
Constitution is derivative,
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that you have individual rights
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and, you know, the
power resides with you,
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not with the king.
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And as the Civil
War loomed and came,
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Coke pushed the issue more.
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In fact, he was
sent to the tower by...
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I think Charles
himself sent him to the tower,
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but you know he was in
prison for a while, so he,
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you know, he really
pushed the envelope,
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but then as it
morphed into the Civil War
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and Cromwell took over,
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Roger Williams
came back to England,
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and spent some time there
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and met with
Cromwell several times,
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and gave some arguments
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in favor of what
they were trying to do.
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So it's not like a separate.
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This is what my
burden on American history,
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it didn't happen in a bubble,
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like the rest of
history was immaterial.
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There was cross fertilization,
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and particularly at
the time of the Civil War,
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which was an English part
of the English Reformation.
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It really was the
Puritans coming to power
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and crossing the line
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which you're arguing against
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about the
separation of church and state,
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but they've merged the religion
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and the state
power in a bad way.
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But then keep in mind
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also that we're
not talking about
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when we're talking about this,
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we're talking about
before the US was the US.
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We're talking about the 1600s,
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we're not
talking about the 1700's.
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It was a vibrant settlement,
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but no, it was roughly 100 years
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before the American
War of Independence.
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Yeah, definitely.
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But, correctly,
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I think Roger
Williams is seen as the Father
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if anyone is of
religious liberty
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on this continent,
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and yet his
connections would direct.
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In fact, I've got a book
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about Roger
Williams and Cromwell,
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the two figures, yeah.
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Nice.
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So when, you
know, we went in 2014,
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doesn't seem like that long ago.
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And when I came back to the US,
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I was talking to
one of my uncle's,
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he's a Presbyterian.
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And he said, you know,
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I don't remember anything
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about the
Protestant Reformation.
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And he's a Protestant, I
mean he's a Presbyterian.
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And I said, "I
think a lot of Americans
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don't understand what
happened during that time period
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ending with each of
the top five reformers.
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And in a nutshell,
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that's what I think
is the looming danger.
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Yes.
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As far as religion,
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they've
forgotten the Reformation.
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As far as American
governance, they have forgotten
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if they ever
knew the Constitution,
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so I'm getting on
my soapbox a bit now.
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In our department, we
deal with legal challenges
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and defending and
through the Supreme Court,
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that's all necessary.
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But I think
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that's sort of fiddling
on the decks of the Titanic.
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If you don't address
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what is clearly
happened on the religious front
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and the political front
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where people
don't know corporately
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the models that their
system of church state
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and of governance is based on.
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It's inevitable
unless you somehow
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can recover that group memory
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and awareness of the
importance of these issues.
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It's inevitable.
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It will drift away.
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And what's worrisome to us is,
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and I'm sure a lot of Christians
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pick up on this,
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but they don't realize
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how far back in history it goes.
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Is that there,
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I mean, you
pretty much have to live
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in a cave and
not have any access
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to any kind of
media to not realize
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the battle that's going
on between religious liberty
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and other people groups' rights,
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in particular LGBTQ rights.
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And what we need
to remember is that
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before we were even founded,
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one of the main issues
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that our
founders and the reformers
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had to deal with
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was this issue of
religious freedom.
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Roger Williams fled England.
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He was an Anabaptist,
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he came to the US and
it wasn't a US at the time,
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came to the new
world to the colonies.
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Well, he didn't quite flee.
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He didn't like the climate.
He didn't like the climate.
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And when he arrived,
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he was offered
the ministerial post
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at the main church,
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one of the main
churches in, was it in Boston?
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Must have been in Boston.
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He eventually became
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the first
governor of Rhode Island.
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Yeah, yes, which he established,
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but he didn't like that,
he was quite independent,
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so he turned that down.
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And that was the start
of a frosty relationship
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that in the end, yeah,
he had go to Rhode Island.
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Yeah, he went away.
00:10:07.67\00:10:09.00
And he...
00:10:09.04\00:10:10.67
Because he was a revolutionary.
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He was revolutionary.
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He hung out a little bit
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with the Native
Americans of the time.
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And one of the
things that he recognized
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that the colonists were doing
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was kind of
imposing their religion
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upon the Native
Americans in the colonies.
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And he also came up with this...
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Not to mention
imposing their religion
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on the slaves.
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On the slaves, yes.
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Which we could have a
whole program on that.
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You probably have
two programs for that.
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But he also was the father
of the idea of soul liberty.
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And if you've ever had
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one of the Baptist
Joint Committee people
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on, I'm sure,
they talked about...
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Yes, over the years a
few times, but not recently.
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Yeah, they talk
about soul liberty,
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and he's the one
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who Thomas Jefferson
took the understanding
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of the separation
00:11:02.82\00:11:04.16
between church and state from.
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So Roger Williams compared
the state to the wilderness
00:11:05.56\00:11:10.47
and the church to a garden.
00:11:10.50\00:11:13.40
And he said, "You
have to have a wall
00:11:13.44\00:11:15.50
that keeps the wilderness
from the beauty of the garden.
00:11:15.54\00:11:19.74
And these are all important.
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This is saying
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like the
current political elect.
00:11:22.51\00:11:24.51
No, I'm just thinking...
00:11:24.55\00:11:25.88
These are all
important to religious liberty.
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I mean the wall
outside the border.
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And we have this long
history of them in America
00:11:29.48\00:11:33.46
that we need to
continue to protect
00:11:33.49\00:11:36.52
even though we have this clash
00:11:36.56\00:11:38.86
that's going on
00:11:38.89\00:11:40.23
between the
rights of other groups
00:11:40.26\00:11:42.06
and the rights of religion.
00:11:42.10\00:11:43.63
I think that all
people need to realize
00:11:43.67\00:11:46.47
that one of the
fundamental issues
00:11:46.50\00:11:50.57
of a civilized society
00:11:50.61\00:11:52.74
is this understanding
00:11:52.77\00:11:55.11
that religion will be protected.
00:11:55.14\00:11:57.61
And the reformers knew that,
00:11:57.65\00:11:59.45
the Reformation
once seem nothing.
00:11:59.48\00:12:00.82
Yes, and I think that
is the single takeaway
00:12:00.85\00:12:04.09
that still sort of
understood in the US.
00:12:04.12\00:12:08.12
But that's what lies between
us and religious factionalism
00:12:08.16\00:12:12.76
and perhaps a
triumphal in run by one group.
00:12:12.79\00:12:18.07
And as I've
thought about it before,
00:12:18.10\00:12:19.87
you know, human nature
is a constant everywhere
00:12:19.90\00:12:22.07
and religions since, if
whichever one you belong to,
00:12:22.10\00:12:25.71
they by and large believes
that they have the truth,
00:12:25.74\00:12:27.81
they have the access to heaven
00:12:27.84\00:12:29.18
and in varying
degrees by definition
00:12:29.21\00:12:31.38
outsiders are either
unwashed ignorant people
00:12:31.41\00:12:35.18
or worse, the devil's minions.
00:12:35.22\00:12:37.75
So, you know,
things can get pretty dicey
00:12:37.79\00:12:39.65
between the ins and the outs.
00:12:39.69\00:12:41.79
And in Europe where
you have a whole country
00:12:41.82\00:12:44.13
or a
principality of one religion,
00:12:44.16\00:12:49.03
you know, then they
could be violent and vicious
00:12:49.06\00:12:51.13
toward the other
or if someone came in.
00:12:51.17\00:12:54.64
The US has been spared
00:12:54.67\00:12:56.00
that not because
people are more tolerant
00:12:56.04\00:12:57.64
in my view,
00:12:57.67\00:12:59.01
but because there
hasn't been a monolithic,
00:12:59.04\00:13:02.41
super
majoritarian religious group.
00:13:02.44\00:13:05.45
I mean, Protestantism
was the prevailing viewpoint,
00:13:05.48\00:13:07.78
but it was
factionalized to the limit.
00:13:07.82\00:13:10.29
And so even today,
00:13:10.32\00:13:12.09
you can see little
pockets of influence
00:13:12.12\00:13:15.12
of different
religious groups around,
00:13:15.16\00:13:16.76
not to mention
all the independence
00:13:16.79\00:13:18.29
and the mega churches
00:13:18.33\00:13:19.66
that are sort of their
own subset of religion.
00:13:19.69\00:13:24.40
And that's good.
00:13:24.43\00:13:25.77
I think that's
meant the certain respect
00:13:25.80\00:13:28.14
and tolerance is automatic,
00:13:28.17\00:13:30.41
otherwise you can't do business.
00:13:30.44\00:13:31.87
But we don't want to allow
00:13:31.91\00:13:33.78
this growth of a
monolithic center
00:13:33.81\00:13:36.88
that clearly will then
function like the old world
00:13:36.91\00:13:39.11
or as the established
church did against Luther.
00:13:39.15\00:13:42.82
If they'd had half a
chance when he rose up
00:13:42.85\00:13:44.82
and questioned their theology,
00:13:44.85\00:13:46.35
they'd burned him
at the stake pronto.
00:13:46.39\00:13:50.19
The point that I bring out
00:13:50.23\00:13:51.73
is they were
facing imminent invasion
00:13:51.76\00:13:54.13
or not imminent,
00:13:54.16\00:13:56.43
hundreds of individual invasions
00:13:56.46\00:13:58.57
from the Islamic South
00:13:58.60\00:14:01.50
was threatening the
very existence of Europe.
00:14:01.54\00:14:03.87
So the rulers needed the support
00:14:03.91\00:14:06.11
of all the princelings
00:14:06.14\00:14:07.48
and they couldn't afford
to offend Luther's protector.
00:14:07.51\00:14:10.75
The Electorate
of Saxony, isn't it?
00:14:10.78\00:14:12.48
Yeah, Saxon, yeah.
00:14:12.51\00:14:13.85
So, you know, thereby, you know,
00:14:13.88\00:14:16.45
he was able to be sheltered.
00:14:16.48\00:14:17.82
But it was just
00:14:17.85\00:14:19.19
an interesting convergence
of events that he survived.
00:14:19.22\00:14:22.52
And he did fear
for his life very much.
00:14:22.56\00:14:24.93
I think his life was at risk
00:14:24.96\00:14:26.66
and that's why he was in essence
00:14:26.70\00:14:29.33
kidnapped for his
protection, I think.
00:14:29.36\00:14:32.30
You know, it's
interesting to me,
00:14:32.33\00:14:33.67
I read histories and the...
00:14:33.70\00:14:38.41
You know on the medieval model,
00:14:38.44\00:14:39.77
they would take
hostages and prisoners
00:14:39.81\00:14:42.34
and they would be redeemed
00:14:42.38\00:14:43.71
and all the rest
that sounded good,
00:14:43.75\00:14:45.08
they come under a white flag.
00:14:45.11\00:14:46.45
But there's plenty of cases
00:14:46.48\00:14:47.82
where those
things were not honored.
00:14:47.85\00:14:49.18
Someone would
come with a white flag
00:14:49.22\00:14:50.55
and they'd cut the
emissary's head off.
00:14:50.59\00:14:52.52
We'll take a break
and be back shortly.
00:14:52.55\00:14:53.92
Stay with us.
00:14:53.96\00:14:55.29