Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI200464B
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00:01 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:02 With guest Amireh Al Haddad, 00:04 we were into the one of the thorniest issues, 00:07 even though it's gone into a hiatus for a while now, 00:11 it's zooming again, the issue of vouchers. 00:14 And there's a lot of players, isn't there? 00:17 And ironically, while for us in the area, 00:21 the issue seems clear cut, many churches, 00:23 even including our own, like the money, 00:26 and there's a lot of rationalizations 00:29 that play that mean, 00:31 the money's accepted, and compromises are made. 00:35 It's a sad commentary, but it's true. 00:39 That while we always say don't take the money, 00:44 we are always standing in line 00:46 when they hand it out. 00:48 Yeah. 00:49 And I think that this will work 00:53 in a negative way for churches. 00:57 We're already seeing some 00:59 of the negativity that's happening 01:02 because there is a very strong segment 01:07 of the LGBTQ community who are saying, 01:10 "Well, if you've taken government money, 01:13 then why won't you hire me?" 01:15 And yeah, as you know, 01:18 one case that sticks in my mind, 01:20 it says in a table, 01:22 the case involving Lutheran School, wasn't it? 01:25 It came up to the Supreme Court, 01:26 and they reaffirm soundly that in a church-run operation, 01:31 in essence, the church can discriminate, 01:32 but that's a horrible way to project 01:36 that to non-church members. 01:38 The idea here this church is discriminating, 01:40 but at least they're standing by their guns, 01:42 but I think it's a red flag to groups like the gay lobby 01:46 when they see the monies being taken. 01:50 And then they're using different legal 01:52 and social ways to force the church to, 01:57 in essence, compromise its moral 01:59 position but it's coming. 02:01 And I know in California, our religious liberty director 02:05 there was very fearful about the time 02:08 the Trump administration started 02:09 which put the end to it, I believe, 02:11 but in the state, there was a suggestion that 02:14 schools that were taking government money 02:16 might have to provide a gay married housing, 02:19 hire not able to fire gays and so on. 02:22 You know, and then they were the respect in a civil society. 02:24 But why should the church 02:26 with the clear moral position be so compromised that 02:29 it would have to bring in everything 02:32 that the world involved? 02:33 It's sort of the same idea, 02:35 I remember there's another infamous case, 02:36 I'm trying to think where 02:37 but there was a Christian legal society 02:41 at some big school, 02:44 that got caught up in a discrimination issue, 02:47 and in the end, 02:48 they were required to open it to non-Christians. 02:50 Right. 02:51 So that they have a meeting 02:53 with the Christian legal society, 02:54 and it's made up of people that are anti-Christian. 02:57 You can't have... 02:58 By definition, an organization ceases to be 03:01 when its distinction is automatically gone through 03:05 its members. 03:06 I consider myself to be very conservative religiously. 03:10 And because of my conservativeness 03:13 I have a profound yearning 03:19 to continue my churches, 03:22 beliefs, and educate the young people 03:25 within my churches, according to our beliefs. 03:29 And because of that, 03:32 I feel like if we want to do what we do best, 03:37 which is educate Seventh-day Adventist young people 03:40 to be Seventh-day Adventist, 03:43 then we need to do it without the aid of government. 03:46 And if it doesn't deserve our money and our giving, 03:51 then why should the government support 03:54 something that we ourselves can't do it? 03:56 This is clear away of putting 03:58 it as I've ever seen or ever heard. 04:00 And to me, 04:01 if you don't support it yourself, 04:05 then that's a clear indication that 04:09 why should the government support 04:10 it on your behalf. 04:11 We say in my territory, in my office, 04:14 what we say when we talk against vouchers 04:17 because we don't like vouchers, 04:18 and we don't like our churches to take the vouchers... 04:20 Well, that's religious department 04:21 has been very consistent... 04:23 Yes. 04:24 For about 130 years plus on warning 04:27 against taking not that vouchers 04:29 as a new deal but, you know, state monies. 04:32 And we continue to be consistent, 04:34 but we consistently say don't take church money 04:37 and then anytime it's offered, 04:39 the church consistently takes it. 04:40 Yes. 04:42 And so what I tell people is that you have to remember, 04:46 there are no government shekels without government shackles. 04:51 And you take... 04:52 No shekels without shackles. You take the shekels. 04:55 You also accept the shackles. 04:56 Can you make the rhyme with dollar? 04:58 Yeah, I can't make it rhyme with dollar bill. 05:00 If you take the government's money... 05:02 If you take the government's dollar 05:04 and then they take it back down holler... 05:08 It was something like that. Yeah, right. 05:09 Yeah. I'm not good poet. 05:10 And if they limit, you do not follow. 05:12 At least not on dough roll. Yeah. 05:14 You take the dollar don't holler. 05:15 Yeah. That's right. Yeah. There you go. 05:17 Take the dollar don't holler. 05:18 So, you know, we do need to understand 05:23 that in order to be true to ourselves 05:26 and to our beliefs, 05:27 we need to find our own missions. 05:30 And if you don't believe 05:31 that Adventist education is a mission... 05:35 Or any church-run... Any church trying to take. 05:37 Yes. 05:39 But the same dynamic applies to any group, I'm sure. 05:41 Yes. 05:43 I think I've mentioned it on this program, 05:45 but this is a good time to reiterate it. 05:46 I remember being very impressed 05:48 by this dynamic or this dynamic at play. 05:51 When I heard about the Newfoundland Conference 05:54 of Seventh-day Adventists, very little. 05:56 Yes. 05:57 It's actually where I was ordained, 05:58 there's only about 900 members 06:00 From the 1990s this is the case. 06:01 Yes. 06:02 Well, it's the case of the school situation. 06:05 But very small, not a wealthy area. 06:09 I mean, the people aren't desperately poor, 06:11 but it's not a rich conference. 06:12 Not many members. 06:14 But they had I think three schools 06:17 that they had supported by the membership 06:19 and have been running for a number of years, 06:22 very successfully and sacrificial support. 06:26 And then the laws passed in Canada 06:28 where the state started largely funding those schools, 06:31 which was, you know, 06:33 answer to some people's prayers. 06:35 So everything was hunky-dory for a while, 06:37 then the laws passed again, 06:38 the money was withdrawn, and the school shut. 06:42 They clearly had the ability and the dedication on their own 06:46 but once the money came in, it corrupted it. 06:48 And I remember very plainly 06:50 when George Bush Jr. became president 06:54 remember his faith-based initiative? 06:55 Yes. 06:56 The whole argument was that the churches 06:58 were doing a great deal. 07:00 So the government could take welfare monies 07:03 and process it through the churches 07:05 and get more bang for the buck. 07:07 When they did it, the church giving dropped overall 07:11 not probably not exactly equal to the amount 07:13 of government money that came in, 07:15 but it debilitated 07:16 the commitment of the church giving. 07:19 So there's something to be said for sacrificial, 07:21 focused support of church operations 07:24 by the members or and their sympathizers 07:27 rather than formal support. 07:29 And, you know, this dynamic is seen in England 07:32 with the state church, it's as weak as water, 07:35 but it gets all its funding from the state. 07:37 People don't care for it. It's sort of delegitimized. 07:39 Taking government money changes your brain. 07:43 Yeah, that's the another to way put it. 07:44 The way you support your church. 07:46 Yeah. It does. 07:47 And, you know, I always say 07:50 if you want free education, there is free education 07:54 to be had in every town in this country. 07:57 If you want an education, that's going to make 08:00 a difference in your child's life, 08:02 in your child's eternal life, 08:05 then you're gonna put your money 08:06 where it matters, 08:08 and know that that kind of education isn't free. 08:11 And the other problem, 08:12 of course, is that because we're Americans, 08:17 we tend to just let people do their own thing, 08:22 and you support your child's education. 08:25 And I tell people all the time, 08:28 your church school has all the money it needs. 08:31 It's just sitting in people's wallets 08:34 or bank accounts. 08:35 I like that. 08:36 And what you need to do is make the school 08:40 or whatever job that you're doing in your church, 08:43 to make that happen you find it at your church. 08:47 You have to get through to people sensibilities, 08:49 they'll give more money. 08:50 You're right. 08:52 And within our churches, I can't miss the opportunity. 08:54 There's been the idea in the past 08:56 that on a certain appeal, 08:58 there's only a finite amount of money available. 09:01 And then if someone else goes for the same dollar 09:03 and then have to split it that isn't true at all. 09:05 Yeah. 09:07 You know, there is a finite amount 09:09 of money in the whole country or in the whole community. 09:11 But that's seldom been reached. 09:13 People respond when they're touched on an issue. 09:15 And they can be touched different ways. 09:17 Yes, definitely. 09:18 And yes, when the government's involved 09:20 or Big Brother's involved, 09:21 maybe I don't need to reach us deep 09:23 that clearly is effective. 09:25 Yeah. 09:27 So where do you think this voucher thing's going now 09:30 because I don't claim to be fully up to speed, 09:33 but I've been reading a number of articles 09:35 that the argument of vouchers is popping up 09:38 quite a bit nowadays. 09:39 And I just put it down to the fact 09:41 of this unprecedented alliance 09:42 between this administration, this president who's... 09:48 That's a good thing, as far as it goes 09:51 that he wants to support religion, 09:52 but he doesn't know except what he's told by this faction, 09:55 and they're saying, 09:57 "Well, we want more support of our schools." 09:59 And I think that's how it's manifesting itself, 10:02 a renewed call for vouchers. 10:04 I think the vouchers at this stage of the game 10:08 have more to do with the Supreme Court 10:11 than anything because it's the Supreme Court, 10:14 it's going to say whether or not they're constitutional 10:16 or not constitutional. 10:18 And this Supreme Court is, as you know, majority Catholic, 10:22 and Catholics tend to not have a problem 10:27 with that state supporting the church, 10:31 around the world, throughout the world 10:34 the state supports the church. 10:35 Is there a case before that based on this right now? 10:38 Not right now that I know of. I can't think of one. 10:40 Yeah. 10:41 So we're sort of waiting for a testament. 10:42 Yeah. I remember a few years ago... 10:46 I don't remember the case but listening to 10:48 a Supreme Court discussion, 10:50 it was always the case 10:51 that dealt with church-state issues. 10:53 And they got to discussing among themselves 10:55 whether or not they could give money 10:56 to build a church and what scarred me 11:00 is they were joking, but they went around 11:02 and the consensus of the court at that time was it says, 11:05 "Okay, as long as they built churches for everyone." 11:08 Yeah, well, I take it back, 11:09 the Supreme Court does have a case. 11:11 They have the Montana voucher case 11:14 that they agreed to take. 11:16 Espinoza versus... 11:21 Oh, yeah, I do know the title. Yeah. 11:23 So we'll see what happens. We will see what happens. 11:24 And there is no question the last two sessions 11:27 to the court have probably changed the dynamic 11:30 and yet they're not Catholic. 11:31 That's interesting as part of your comment, 11:33 but I think they've changed the dynamic 11:35 more toward facilitating church... 11:37 State support of the churches. Yes. 11:39 It's not really as off-limits as it once was. 11:42 No, it's not. 11:44 So when it happens next time, 11:46 what are you going to do in the Southern Union, 11:48 you've got a battle plan? 11:50 We always have a battle plan. 11:52 We always want to make sure that 11:55 state and church are separate. 11:58 We always want to make sure that 12:00 the Establishment Clause is being upheld. 12:02 And like I said before, 12:05 when you take government money for vouchers, 12:07 even though it's for something good, 12:10 something to fund that you love and believe in 12:13 like your church school or your church, 12:16 what happens is you're accepting 12:19 government shekels. 12:20 And the government doesn't really like 12:22 to give money and not have any control. 12:25 And so that's always the thing you want to remember. 12:28 There are absolutely no shekels without shackles. 12:32 So let's keep separation 12:34 of church and state strong that way. 12:39 This is saying in law and politics, follow the money. 12:44 And when we're talking about religious liberty 12:47 and maintaining the discrete difference between 12:49 church and state, 12:51 very often money is part of that story. 12:54 In the Old Testament, 12:56 there are plenty of accounts of people 12:58 from Gehazi to certain magician trying to sell the spirit 13:03 and the services of the Holy Spirit 13:07 to others prostituting their religion. 13:11 We know that that is wrong. 13:13 When we talk about state aid through there's something 13:16 more subtle at work, it seems a good thing. 13:20 We were told as early Seventh-day Adventists 13:22 that God does move upon kings and princes to give money fine. 13:26 But when that money comes, it often by its very existence, 13:30 corrupts and diverts. 13:33 Much better for those who have deep faith 13:35 to realize that God will provide the cattle 13:38 on a 1,000 Hills are His, 13:41 but we should not look to the gods of Ashdod, Escalon, 13:46 and all the rest of the foreign places for money 13:49 and support that God's own people 13:51 and God's own means can supply. 13:55 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2020-06-11