Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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With guest Amireh Al Haddad,
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we were into the one
of the thorniest issues,
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even though it's gone
into a hiatus for a while now,
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it's zooming again,
the issue of vouchers.
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And there's a lot of
players, isn't there?
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And ironically,
while for us in the area,
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the issue seems
clear cut, many churches,
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even including our
own, like the money,
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and there's a lot
of rationalizations
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that play that mean,
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the money's accepted,
and compromises are made.
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It's a sad
commentary, but it's true.
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That while we always
say don't take the money,
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we are always standing in line
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when they hand it out.
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Yeah.
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And I think that this will work
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in a negative way for churches.
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We're already seeing some
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of the
negativity that's happening
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because there is a
very strong segment
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of the LGBTQ
community who are saying,
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"Well, if you've
taken government money,
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then why won't you hire me?"
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And yeah, as you know,
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one case that sticks in my mind,
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it says in a table,
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the case involving
Lutheran School, wasn't it?
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It came up to the Supreme Court,
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and they reaffirm soundly
that in a church-run operation,
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in essence, the
church can discriminate,
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but that's a
horrible way to project
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that to non-church members.
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The idea here this
church is discriminating,
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but at least they're
standing by their guns,
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but I think it's a red flag
to groups like the gay lobby
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when they see the
monies being taken.
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And then they're
using different legal
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and social ways to
force the church to,
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in essence, compromise its moral
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position but it's coming.
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And I know in California,
our religious liberty director
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there was very
fearful about the time
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the Trump administration started
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which put the
end to it, I believe,
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but in the state,
there was a suggestion that
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schools that were
taking government money
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might have to provide
a gay married housing,
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hire not able to
fire gays and so on.
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You know, and then they were
the respect in a civil society.
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But why should the church
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with the clear moral
position be so compromised that
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it would have to
bring in everything
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that the world involved?
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It's sort of the same idea,
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I remember there's
another infamous case,
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I'm trying to think where
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but there was a
Christian legal society
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at some big school,
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that got caught up in
a discrimination issue,
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and in the end,
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they were required to
open it to non-Christians.
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Right.
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So that they have a meeting
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with the
Christian legal society,
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and it's made up of
people that are anti-Christian.
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You can't have...
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By definition, an
organization ceases to be
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when its distinction is
automatically gone through
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its members.
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I consider myself to be
very conservative religiously.
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And because of
my conservativeness
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I have a profound yearning
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to continue my churches,
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beliefs, and
educate the young people
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within my churches,
according to our beliefs.
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And because of that,
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I feel like if we
want to do what we do best,
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which is educate Seventh-day
Adventist young people
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to be Seventh-day Adventist,
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then we need to do it
without the aid of government.
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And if it doesn't deserve
our money and our giving,
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then why should
the government support
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something that we
ourselves can't do it?
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This is clear away of putting
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it as I've ever
seen or ever heard.
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And to me,
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if you don't
support it yourself,
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then that's a
clear indication that
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why should the
government support
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it on your behalf.
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We say in my
territory, in my office,
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what we say when we
talk against vouchers
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because we don't like vouchers,
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and we don't like our
churches to take the vouchers...
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Well, that's
religious department
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has been very consistent...
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Yes.
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For about 130
years plus on warning
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against taking not that vouchers
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as a new deal but,
you know, state monies.
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And we continue
to be consistent,
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but we consistently
say don't take church money
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and then anytime it's offered,
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the church
consistently takes it.
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Yes.
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And so what I tell people
is that you have to remember,
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there are no government shekels
without government shackles.
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And you take...
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No shekels without
shackles. You take the shekels.
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You also accept the shackles.
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Can you make the
rhyme with dollar?
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Yeah, I can't make it
rhyme with dollar bill.
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If you take the
government's money...
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If you take the
government's dollar
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and then they take
it back down holler...
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It was something
like that. Yeah, right.
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Yeah. I'm not good poet.
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And if they
limit, you do not follow.
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At least not on
dough roll. Yeah.
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You take the
dollar don't holler.
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Yeah. That's
right. Yeah. There you go.
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Take the dollar don't holler.
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So, you know, we
do need to understand
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that in order to
be true to ourselves
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and to our beliefs,
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we need to find
our own missions.
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And if you don't believe
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that Adventist
education is a mission...
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Or any church-run...
Any church trying to take.
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Yes.
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But the same dynamic
applies to any group, I'm sure.
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Yes.
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I think I've
mentioned it on this program,
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but this is a good
time to reiterate it.
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I remember being very impressed
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by this dynamic or
this dynamic at play.
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When I heard about the
Newfoundland Conference
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of Seventh-day
Adventists, very little.
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Yes.
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It's actually
where I was ordained,
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there's only about 900 members
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From the 1990s this is the case.
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Yes.
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Well, it's the case
of the school situation.
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But very small,
not a wealthy area.
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I mean, the people
aren't desperately poor,
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but it's not a rich conference.
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Not many members.
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But they had I
think three schools
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that they had
supported by the membership
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and have been running
for a number of years,
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very successfully
and sacrificial support.
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And then the
laws passed in Canada
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where the state started
largely funding those schools,
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which was, you know,
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answer to some people's prayers.
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So everything was
hunky-dory for a while,
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then the laws passed again,
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the money was
withdrawn, and the school shut.
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They clearly had the ability
and the dedication on their own
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but once the money
came in, it corrupted it.
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And I remember very plainly
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when George Bush
Jr. became president
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remember his
faith-based initiative?
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Yes.
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The whole argument
was that the churches
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were doing a great deal.
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So the government
could take welfare monies
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and process it
through the churches
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and get more bang for the buck.
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When they did it, the
church giving dropped overall
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not probably not
exactly equal to the amount
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of government
money that came in,
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but it debilitated
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the commitment of
the church giving.
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So there's something to
be said for sacrificial,
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focused support
of church operations
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by the members or
and their sympathizers
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rather than formal support.
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And, you know, this
dynamic is seen in England
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with the state
church, it's as weak as water,
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but it gets all its
funding from the state.
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People don't care for it.
It's sort of delegitimized.
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Taking government
money changes your brain.
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Yeah, that's the
another to way put it.
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The way you support your church.
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Yeah. It does.
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And, you know, I always say
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if you want free education,
there is free education
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to be had in every
town in this country.
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If you want an
education, that's going to make
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a difference in
your child's life,
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in your child's eternal life,
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then you're gonna put your money
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where it matters,
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and know that that kind
of education isn't free.
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And the other problem,
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of course, is that
because we're Americans,
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we tend to just let
people do their own thing,
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and you support
your child's education.
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And I tell people all the time,
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your church school has
all the money it needs.
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It's just sitting
in people's wallets
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or bank accounts.
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I like that.
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And what you need to
do is make the school
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or whatever job that
you're doing in your church,
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to make that happen
you find it at your church.
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You have to get through
to people sensibilities,
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they'll give more money.
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You're right.
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And within our churches, I
can't miss the opportunity.
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There's been
the idea in the past
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that on a certain appeal,
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there's only a finite
amount of money available.
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And then if someone
else goes for the same dollar
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and then have to split
it that isn't true at all.
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Yeah.
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You know, there
is a finite amount
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of money in the whole country
or in the whole community.
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But that's seldom been reached.
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People respond when
they're touched on an issue.
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And they can be
touched different ways.
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Yes, definitely.
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And yes, when the
government's involved
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or Big Brother's involved,
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maybe I don't
need to reach us deep
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that clearly is effective.
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Yeah.
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So where do you think
this voucher thing's going now
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because I don't claim
to be fully up to speed,
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but I've been
reading a number of articles
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that the argument of
vouchers is popping up
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quite a bit nowadays.
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And I just put
it down to the fact
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of this unprecedented alliance
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between this administration,
this president who's...
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That's a good
thing, as far as it goes
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that he wants to
support religion,
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but he doesn't know except
what he's told by this faction,
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and they're saying,
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"Well, we want more
support of our schools."
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And I think that's how
it's manifesting itself,
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a renewed call for vouchers.
00:10:02.10\00:10:04.90
I think the vouchers
at this stage of the game
00:10:04.93\00:10:08.07
have more to do
with the Supreme Court
00:10:08.10\00:10:11.57
than anything because
it's the Supreme Court,
00:10:11.61\00:10:14.18
it's going to say whether
or not they're constitutional
00:10:14.21\00:10:16.85
or not constitutional.
00:10:16.88\00:10:18.41
And this Supreme Court is,
as you know, majority Catholic,
00:10:18.45\00:10:22.38
and Catholics tend
to not have a problem
00:10:22.42\00:10:27.26
with that state
supporting the church,
00:10:27.29\00:10:31.19
around the world,
throughout the world
00:10:31.23\00:10:34.13
the state supports the church.
00:10:34.16\00:10:35.66
Is there a case before
that based on this right now?
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Not right now that I
know of. I can't think of one.
00:10:38.87\00:10:40.20
Yeah.
00:10:40.24\00:10:41.57
So we're sort of
waiting for a testament.
00:10:41.60\00:10:42.94
Yeah. I remember
a few years ago...
00:10:42.97\00:10:46.64
I don't remember the
case but listening to
00:10:46.68\00:10:48.31
a Supreme Court discussion,
00:10:48.34\00:10:50.18
it was always the case
00:10:50.21\00:10:51.55
that dealt with
church-state issues.
00:10:51.58\00:10:53.01
And they got to
discussing among themselves
00:10:53.05\00:10:55.58
whether or not
they could give money
00:10:55.62\00:10:56.95
to build a church
and what scarred me
00:10:56.99\00:11:00.42
is they were
joking, but they went around
00:11:00.46\00:11:02.39
and the consensus of the
court at that time was it says,
00:11:02.42\00:11:05.73
"Okay, as long as they
built churches for everyone."
00:11:05.76\00:11:08.26
Yeah, well, I take it back,
00:11:08.30\00:11:09.63
the Supreme
Court does have a case.
00:11:09.66\00:11:11.37
They have the
Montana voucher case
00:11:11.40\00:11:14.70
that they agreed to take.
00:11:14.74\00:11:16.57
Espinoza versus...
00:11:16.60\00:11:20.98
Oh, yeah, I do
know the title. Yeah.
00:11:21.01\00:11:23.11
So we'll see what happens.
We will see what happens.
00:11:23.14\00:11:24.81
And there is no
question the last two sessions
00:11:24.85\00:11:27.58
to the court have
probably changed the dynamic
00:11:27.62\00:11:30.12
and yet they're not Catholic.
00:11:30.15\00:11:31.75
That's interesting
as part of your comment,
00:11:31.79\00:11:33.56
but I think
they've changed the dynamic
00:11:33.59\00:11:35.29
more toward
facilitating church...
00:11:35.32\00:11:37.83
State support of
the churches. Yes.
00:11:37.86\00:11:39.66
It's not really as
off-limits as it once was.
00:11:39.69\00:11:42.63
No, it's not.
00:11:42.66\00:11:44.00
So when it happens next time,
00:11:44.03\00:11:46.17
what are you going to
do in the Southern Union,
00:11:46.20\00:11:48.57
you've got a battle plan?
00:11:48.60\00:11:50.71
We always have a battle plan.
00:11:50.74\00:11:52.07
We always want to make sure that
00:11:52.11\00:11:55.84
state and church are separate.
00:11:55.88\00:11:58.21
We always want to make sure that
00:11:58.25\00:12:00.05
the Establishment
Clause is being upheld.
00:12:00.08\00:12:02.78
And like I said before,
00:12:02.82\00:12:05.05
when you take
government money for vouchers,
00:12:05.09\00:12:07.86
even though it's
for something good,
00:12:07.89\00:12:10.33
something to fund that
you love and believe in
00:12:10.36\00:12:13.29
like your church
school or your church,
00:12:13.33\00:12:16.23
what happens is you're accepting
00:12:16.26\00:12:19.13
government shekels.
00:12:19.17\00:12:20.50
And the government
doesn't really like
00:12:20.54\00:12:22.40
to give money and
not have any control.
00:12:22.44\00:12:25.01
And so that's always the
thing you want to remember.
00:12:25.04\00:12:28.14
There are absolutely no
shekels without shackles.
00:12:28.18\00:12:32.11
So let's keep separation
00:12:32.15\00:12:34.32
of church and
state strong that way.
00:12:34.35\00:12:39.69
This is saying in law and
politics, follow the money.
00:12:39.72\00:12:44.23
And when we're talking
about religious liberty
00:12:44.26\00:12:47.40
and maintaining the
discrete difference between
00:12:47.43\00:12:49.63
church and state,
00:12:49.66\00:12:51.00
very often money
is part of that story.
00:12:51.03\00:12:54.70
In the Old Testament,
00:12:54.74\00:12:56.07
there are plenty
of accounts of people
00:12:56.10\00:12:58.57
from Gehazi to certain magician
trying to sell the spirit
00:12:58.61\00:13:03.75
and the services
of the Holy Spirit
00:13:03.78\00:13:07.62
to others
prostituting their religion.
00:13:07.65\00:13:11.29
We know that that is wrong.
00:13:11.32\00:13:13.96
When we talk about state
aid through there's something
00:13:13.99\00:13:16.59
more subtle at work,
it seems a good thing.
00:13:16.62\00:13:20.16
We were told as early
Seventh-day Adventists
00:13:20.20\00:13:22.23
that God does move upon kings
and princes to give money fine.
00:13:22.26\00:13:26.40
But when that money comes,
it often by its very existence,
00:13:26.43\00:13:30.87
corrupts and diverts.
00:13:30.91\00:13:33.48
Much better for
those who have deep faith
00:13:33.51\00:13:35.41
to realize that God
will provide the cattle
00:13:35.44\00:13:38.51
on a 1,000 Hills are His,
00:13:38.55\00:13:41.08
but we should not look to
the gods of Ashdod, Escalon,
00:13:41.12\00:13:45.99
and all the rest of the
foreign places for money
00:13:46.02\00:13:49.12
and support
that God's own people
00:13:49.16\00:13:51.33
and God's own means can supply.
00:13:51.36\00:13:54.96
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:13:55.00\00:13:57.80