Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI200464A
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00:28 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:30 This is the program designed to start discussion, 00:34 give information, and open your mental horizons 00:37 on the topic of religious liberty, 00:40 both in the United States and indeed around the world. 00:43 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine. 00:46 And my guest on this program, 00:48 welcome, Miss Amireh Al Haddad, 00:51 Director of Public Affairs and Religious Liberty 00:54 for the Southern Union of Seventh-day Adventists. 00:55 Yes. 00:57 I got it all? Yes. 00:58 And I'm sure there's a few other subtitles 01:00 that you carry because there's so many aspects 01:03 to carrying on the religious liberty 01:05 and public affairs work, 01:06 which really is presenting our church generally. 01:10 But mostly we're talking about 01:11 religious liberty on this program. 01:13 And there's something 01:15 that's even before I started with Liberty Magazine, 01:18 just as the Seventh-day Adventist 01:19 looking at this whole issue, 01:22 the question of state aid, 01:23 public monies to support religion, 01:26 usually to education, hot topic. 01:29 And when I started about 20 years ago, 01:32 it was the hottest topic under the rubric of vouchers. 01:36 Yes. 01:37 And I can remember, 01:38 you might not, but I sent an email. 01:40 You talk about social media and the risk, 01:43 but I sent an email once to the power people 01:46 and I said, "You know, we need to get over it. 01:47 That is yesterday's issue." 01:50 Yeah. But it's come back. 01:51 It's come back or coming back big time. 01:53 Yes, it is. 01:54 It used to be called parochial aid. 01:57 That became I guess politically incorrect, 02:00 told you too much about what vouchers did. 02:03 Vouchers is more generic. 02:05 Anybody could have a voucher. 02:07 Vouchers seem to be good things. 02:09 You know, you get a hotel, 02:11 and maybe they'll give you a meal voucher, 02:13 so all of these things are... 02:15 And it disrupts the apparent passage of money. 02:19 It's not as easy. 02:20 In some people's minds they say, 02:21 well, the government's not giving the money. 02:23 You know, they're giving it to the parent 02:25 or an intermediary 02:26 and then they give it to the church, 02:29 but the government sees it as their funding of... 02:32 Yeah, its indirect aid to religious schools. 02:35 Yeah. It's what it is. 02:37 And in the territory 02:39 that I work and direct and cover, 02:41 we have eight states in the southeast 02:45 and all eight of them 02:47 have a little bit of a different approach. 02:49 One of the first places in my territory 02:52 that we had the issue of vouchers was in Florida. 02:55 And in Florida, I think it was 1999, 02:59 the Supreme Court of Florida said that vouchers 03:02 did something that was very important in Florida. 03:06 And that was that they violated 03:08 Florida's Blaine Amendment. 03:10 And Florida has the Blaine Amendment 03:12 that says, "No money will be taken from the treasury 03:15 either directly or indirectly 03:17 to aid a religion or a sect or a church." 03:20 I forgot... 03:21 I remember the discussions 03:23 of the Blaine amendment years ago. 03:24 So long since I heard it, 03:26 I'd really forgotten how specific it was. 03:27 Yeah, so named after Senator Blaine. 03:30 He later became, I think... 03:33 Was he... 03:36 I think he was secretary of state, 03:38 maybe I'm thinking of someone else. 03:40 In fact, I don't remember. 03:42 He started the Blaine amendments by... 03:46 What I just said, you know, no aid 03:48 shall be given to religion, sex, or churches. 03:53 He started it on the federal level. 03:55 This is in the 1880s. 03:56 And he wanted to pass a federal bill 03:59 that would prohibit this. 04:02 It never quite made it through on the federal level, 04:05 but it did do very well at the state level. 04:09 And I think 27 or 28 states 04:12 passed Blaine amendments attach them 04:15 to their constitution. 04:17 Seems like he was on pretty solid ground. 04:19 I mean, that's the specifically it 04:22 answers the general requirement of the First Amendment. 04:26 It does. 04:27 At least, the way we've interpreted 04:29 the First Amendment on the Establishment Clause side. 04:32 Make no law establishing religion. 04:35 You could argue about what establishing is 04:37 but to fund religions 04:40 seems to be on the other side of the logical divide. 04:43 Yes. 04:45 Yeah. 04:47 So what's going on... 04:48 Because I have become aware especially down south, 04:53 the agitation for vouchers 04:55 and for government funding of different church programs 04:58 and schools is increasing. 05:00 What's behind it? 05:01 So what's behind it is a way 05:04 that people are terming or couching 05:07 what's happening 05:09 when you can't get money to churches. 05:11 And so now people have really taken up 05:14 the call of saying, "Hey, this is discrimination." 05:18 Well, they're using straw man arguments... 05:20 Of course. 05:22 We've had the article on these rubberized chips 05:26 from old used tires is a safety thing 05:30 on playground equipment at schools. 05:32 Yes. 05:33 And I remember one church school, of course... 05:35 Trinity? Yeah. 05:37 Trinity versus Comber. 05:38 And the idea was 05:39 how could you withhold something 05:41 that would actually might endanger the children 05:42 if this church school didn't get it? 05:45 So yeah, we don't fund church schools, 05:48 but this is just a safety issue 05:49 for the concern of the young people. 05:51 But to me, that's a straw man, that's dodging the issue 05:54 and using maybe your emotional thinking 05:59 rather than the logic on it 06:01 because it doesn't mean 06:02 that if the government doesn't provide, 06:04 it doesn't mean that the kids are unsafe. 06:06 Well, the argument here is that they were going to use 06:08 this as Trinity versus Comber in Missouri. 06:11 That they were going to use this grant money... 06:14 It's about three, four years ago, wasn't it? 06:15 Yes. 06:17 Grant money to provide 06:18 the rubberized playground material base 06:22 for the playground. 06:23 And the argument 06:25 was that it would not help fund religion 06:28 because the playground was secular 06:31 and anybody could come and use their playground. 06:35 Well, one level it's obvious 06:37 if people think about how money works. 06:39 If the church-run operation 06:43 doesn't have to provide that themselves, 06:45 that frees up more of their money 06:47 for their church operation. 06:48 Yes. 06:50 So it clearly is helping religion. 06:51 But they said, "You give it to everybody 06:54 except for churches, 06:56 and we feel like that's discriminatory." 06:58 But let's see what churches do and don't do. 07:01 Churches are exempt from taxed. 07:03 I was about to say that. 07:05 They get a certain advantage 07:06 that it's not given to everybody. 07:07 Right. 07:09 And so churches say, "We don't want to pay taxes, 07:11 but we don't mind taking money out of the tax coffers." 07:15 Now which one do you want it to be, either or? 07:18 So it's an argument that doesn't work for me. 07:21 In fact, there's even a good argument 07:23 the way in the churches don't really inherently like, 07:27 but there is an argument that the churches 07:29 shouldn't even have the tax exemption. 07:31 There is that argument. Yeah. 07:32 That is favoritism is shown to the churches. 07:35 Yes. 07:37 And saying the Satanists are in the medieval era 07:38 when the church was the privileged child 07:40 of the state. 07:42 Well, and I think we've got the case 07:44 coming through on the 07:49 parsonage allowance. 07:51 You know, should the government 07:53 give parsonage allowances to pastors? 07:56 That's a hot issue with me. 07:59 I'm sure most pastors will tell you 08:03 that's a hot issue with them. 08:04 No, it's hot issue with me 08:05 because I can't claim anything 08:07 since, I don't have a high mortgage. 08:09 Oh, okay. 08:10 Well, you do have to meet that certain number 08:15 that they've got. 08:17 And some of these dynamics 08:18 that we've inherited like I said... 08:20 I mean, you can clearly chase all... 08:23 Trace a lot of this back to even pre-reformation times 08:28 and how religion related to the state. 08:31 What we've got leftover 08:32 I don't think is necessarily harmful, 08:34 and I'm willing myself even 08:36 to sort of pass this off like the Supreme Court. 08:39 Some of these residual things, ceremonial deism, 08:42 or it's just or to really jump a big fence. 08:47 You know, the religious rights are always looking at excuses 08:52 to say this is a Christian nation. 08:53 They go to the constitution, 08:54 and I like the President has something to do with him 08:58 signing a bill, and it says Sunday's accepted. 09:01 Well, all that is just a cultural acknowledgment 09:04 that most people are worshipping on Sunday, 09:06 and it's not a day of business. 09:08 It has nothing to do with the designation 09:11 or a formal designation 09:12 by the country that this is a sacred day. 09:15 So there's just models that we've inherited. 09:19 But I think if those models are getting in the way 09:22 of separation of church and state 09:24 or religious freedom, we need to examine them. 09:27 Yeah. 09:28 And there is a bit of an argument 09:31 on tax exemptions and so on. 09:33 But to me, it's an easy one on vouchers 09:36 and other clever ways of funneling state money 09:40 through to churches which... 09:42 You know, if I was a Muslim or a Buddhist or something, 09:46 I'd be vaguely offended by my tax money 09:49 being channeled directly into the dominant religion, 09:52 which happens to be Christianity in the U.S. 09:55 Well, it's interesting, you should bring that up 09:56 because in North Carolina... 09:58 About four or five years ago, 10:01 North Carolina passed the first step 10:04 in a what is supposed to be a multi-step program 10:08 called opportunity scholarships. 10:11 This is the new name for vouchers. 10:14 So we used to call them parochial 10:17 then we called them vouchers 10:19 and now we're calling them opportunity scholarships. 10:22 And in North Carolina, 10:24 the opportunity scholarships designated about $2 million 10:28 the first year to that they made it through. 10:32 And when I quiz people when we talk about this, 10:36 and I'll ask people, "Who do you think 10:38 gets the majority 10:40 of the opportunity scholarship money 10:42 in North Carolina?" 10:44 And, you know, people will say the Baptist, 10:47 or they'll say the Catholics, or they'll say the Methodist, 10:51 they never ever say the Muslims. 10:56 But in North Carolina... 10:57 But they are so in North Carolina. 10:58 The Muslims get the first two or three years 11:01 the program ran the Muslims got over 60% 11:05 of all the opportunity scholarship money. 11:07 Interesting. 11:08 Now, you know, good luck to them on a certain level. 11:11 Yeah. 11:12 But that might be the easiest way 11:14 with some constituencies to point that out 11:16 and then it would stop real quick 11:19 because I know the intent 11:20 is not to help minorities particularly. 11:22 Right. 11:24 But it goes to the whole issue 11:25 of why we say tax dollars shouldn't go to churches 11:29 because we all disagree 11:31 with each other about our religion. 11:33 Exactly. 11:34 Across the board, 11:36 whether it be Protestants against Protestants 11:39 or Protestants against Catholics 11:41 or either Christians against Muslims 11:44 or Buddhists or whatever. 11:46 We all understand that our beliefs 11:49 will disagree with other beliefs. 11:51 And it inhibits what should be going on 11:53 the free exchange of information. 11:55 It starts to put the walls up 11:58 and misinformation bounds and so on. 12:01 I can't see anything good coming from state support 12:04 of religion through money 12:06 or even we're not leaving specific laws to uphold 12:11 and protect that religion is not good. 12:14 When the voucher bill went through Florida, 12:18 my department in the southern union 12:22 because Florida is in our territory, 12:24 we very specifically were opposed to vouchers. 12:28 And we made it known 12:29 that we were opposed to vouchers. 12:31 And one of the things 12:33 that the voucher bills did in Florida, 12:35 and this has been the caveat in some of the other areas 12:40 is that number one, 12:45 you cannot force the student 12:46 to attend your Bible class or your chapels. 12:50 You cannot cherry-pick the students you want. 12:55 So you have to take all comers with the vouchers. 13:00 There was some issue about curriculum, 13:03 whether or not you had to pass a certain curriculum 13:05 with the state 13:07 and then there were issues of hiring problems. 13:10 Well, these are all the issues of concern 13:12 running a church operation in a secular environment. 13:14 All of them. Correct. 13:15 Yes. 13:17 And it's fraught with peril. 13:19 Maybe this is a good time to take a break. 13:20 We'll be back shortly to continue this discussion 13:23 of vouchers and the implications, 13:25 particularly in education as Amireh has pointed out. 13:28 Sounds good. |
Revised 2020-06-11