Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190455A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:29 This is the program bringing you news, 00:30 views, analysis, 00:32 and information on religious liberty in the US 00:35 and around the world. 00:36 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty Magazine, 00:40 and my guest on this program, Greg Hamilton, 00:43 President of the Northwest Religious Liberty Association. 00:46 And man with his hand on the Bible for good reason 00:49 because let's talk about religious liberty 00:52 from a biblical perspective and maybe get some cues 00:55 from some of the things that we find there. 00:58 And in particular, sorry to cut you off, 01:00 but how we can relate 01:03 and how they did relate to authorities 01:05 from a church state authority point of view? 01:08 I view Religious Liberty ministry 01:10 as more than anything else as ambassadorial. 01:15 Meaning, that it's very important to meet people 01:19 at high levels of government and represent the cause, 01:23 the message our mission well, very well, in fact. 01:27 And so it's important that we be practical. 01:31 And one of the things I've discovered 01:33 in terms of meeting legislators 01:36 is and I know this sounds really funny, 01:39 but it's just the opposite of what you think. 01:43 If you think that all they want to know is how much you care, 01:47 that's not true. 01:48 They want to know 01:49 if you really know what you're talking about. 01:52 Yeah. Competency is number one. 01:55 Now I would say a dose of kindness 01:58 needs to be there, okay? 01:59 And respectfulness 02:01 and diplomacy is very much in play here. 02:06 But I think of Paul's writing in 1 Timothy 02:08 where he talks about urging that and he says first of all. 02:13 In other words this is primary importance 02:16 that requests prayers, intercession, 02:17 and thanksgiving be made for everyone 02:20 for kings and all those in authority 02:22 that we may live peaceful, 02:24 that we may live peaceful 02:26 and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 02:30 Now it says this is good and pleases God, 02:32 our Savior who wants all men to be saved 02:34 and to come to knowledge of the truth. 02:35 For there's one God and one mediator 02:37 between God and man, the man, Christ Jesus, 02:41 who gave Himself as a ransom for all men, 02:43 the testimony given in its proper time. 02:46 But listen to this, he finishes up with this. 02:48 And for this purpose, 02:50 I was appointed a herald and an apostle. 02:53 In other words an ambassador. 02:55 I am telling the truth, I am not lying, 02:57 and I am a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles. 03:02 Now what's significant about that is the fact that 03:06 Paul is saying 03:10 that all those in authority, 03:13 we need to have people who go forward 03:16 to not only defend religious freedom 03:18 but to be ambassadors of peace. 03:21 So that we can also all the rest of us 03:24 can live a life of peace, 03:29 quietness in all godliness and holiness. 03:31 Really? 03:33 Yeah. Wow! 03:34 You know, that's resonating with me now. 03:36 As we do every year, we promoting liberty, 03:38 particularly within our church circle, 03:41 but it's open to anyone that reads Liberty Magazine. 03:44 And our theme this year is or the title 03:47 to our promotion is called witness. 03:50 Because I think that's... 03:52 Yeah, there you go. 03:53 Good article in there too. 03:54 We've reprinted one of your articles, 03:56 but, you know, that's an indispensable element 03:58 of what we're doing. 03:59 We are witnessing on behalf of God to anyone, 04:03 but particularly leaders in the community. 04:07 There's something that jumped out at me 04:09 that I'd never really thought of before. 04:12 What Paul says 04:13 is that there's one God and one mediator, 04:16 right after saying that we pray for the leaders. 04:18 What was the role of the Caesar in particular 04:22 and of most leaders in that era? 04:26 Go ahead. Not in Israel. 04:28 Israel was a little bit different. 04:29 But the leader was basically 04:31 the representative of the God's, the intermediary. 04:33 He even right through till recently in western history, 04:37 the divine right of kings was because God had set them there. 04:40 In fact, one qualification in ancient Rome 04:43 during the Roman Republic 04:45 to become the proconsul or the chief person, 04:50 which would later become Caesar 04:52 was the fact that you had to serve as vice Caesar 04:55 and the vice Caesar was a spiritual role, 04:58 the vice president was in modern terms 05:02 had to play a spiritual role. 05:04 So that when you became Caesar, you were already divinity, 05:09 you're already divine. 05:10 So divinity then occupied the role of Caesar 05:13 and then Caesar proclaimed himself God. 05:16 That even when he proclaimed himself God, 05:19 it was an extension of their thinking. 05:21 He was not the prime God, he was connected with the gods. 05:26 And by the way... 05:27 He was the conduit for the people through to... 05:29 Yes. 05:30 And so it never hit me before Paul in essence 05:34 is sort of not a slap 05:35 but he's showing another way 05:37 of what the secularists would have thought back then. 05:40 The vice Caesar 05:41 that the position title was pontifex maximus. 05:44 So that's where the pope. It's a familiar... 05:47 Yeah, familiar term there. He introduced the title. 05:49 He didn't get it from Peter. 05:50 He got it from a pagan concept, from a pagan construct. 05:54 But Paul is putting it a little bit differently 05:57 and since we look straight to God, 05:59 we can rather than the Caesar or someone 06:01 we can intercede with God on behalf of that ruler. 06:04 Right. It's really turning things. 06:06 Right, where he's somewhere around. 06:07 He says, "For there's one God 06:10 and one mediator between God and men, 06:13 the man Christ Jesus." 06:14 Yeah. Yeah, that's so wonderful. 06:16 And in isolation, of course, 06:18 that's the editorial ministry of Christ. 06:21 To me the Bible is just full of these in the New Testament, 06:24 of course, most famously, 06:26 I think, Paul himself 06:27 standing before those different leaders 06:29 all the way up to Caesar... 06:30 Well. 06:32 Witnessing in a way that, 06:34 you know, they said he was mad at one point, 06:36 but I think it wasn't, you know, you're crazy. 06:39 It was just that you're so enthused with that 06:41 'cause the word enthusiasm 06:42 carries tinge of spiritual madness. 06:45 Well... But and you... 06:47 Much learning is essential, so he was very logical. 06:49 He was enthused and persuasive and, 06:52 you know, we can't go along with this. 06:54 It even goes against, they could have said, 06:56 it goes against the ruling principle of Rome. 06:59 But it was also backhanded way of basically saying, 07:02 "Hey, guys, there's, 07:03 you know, we serve a God that's higher than man." 07:07 And... 07:09 Well, yes, that's what Paul saying in that meeting. 07:11 Yes. 07:12 The God is superior. 07:14 But we still should pray so that we can all live 07:17 peaceful and quiet lives and godliness and holiness. 07:20 We need to recognize earthly rulers 07:23 who God is allowed to rule. 07:25 And so we should work in harmony 07:28 with our prayers to uplift them before the God of heaven. 07:33 And the God of all the universe. 07:36 And that is primarily of importance here, 07:39 but it's also how we engage them. 07:41 It's not just praying for them. 07:43 It's actively engaged with authorities. 07:47 He doesn't say, "Okay, 07:48 that we should just sit back and do nothing." 07:51 No, that's true. 07:52 There are some of us that are called to do that, 07:54 not everybody's called to Religious Liberty ministry 07:58 or ambassadorial type ministry 07:59 and that's why he says that those who do, do it, 08:03 so the rest of you can benefit 08:04 from our activity in the diplomatic world. 08:08 Paul was feeling this burden upon himself 08:10 and he was writing to Timothy 08:12 who was quite young at the time to recognize 08:16 basically the role that he, Paul was playing 08:21 and that he was trying to mentor Timothy to say, 08:24 "You'll be coming up in my footsteps 08:26 to take my place someday." 08:28 One thing that struck me a long time ago 08:31 about Paul's ministry. 08:32 I mean, there was only one Caesar and, 08:35 you know, he was in chains 08:36 when he spoke to a group or in that, 08:38 but it's very obvious as he traveled around 08:40 on his ministry, missionary tours 08:42 that he seemed to select 08:45 the leading people of a different town, 08:48 equivalent to the mayor or whatever. 08:50 Right, or the precinct leader. 08:51 He was going to the thought leader, the... 08:54 Yeah, the thought community leader there. 08:57 That way you could influence people more easily. 09:00 And I think that's the same today. 09:02 Well, there's one other reason that Paul, 09:04 you know, you got to understand Paul 09:06 at his heart of hearts even though 09:08 he did sit on the Sanhedrin. 09:10 He was a philosopher of philosophers. 09:13 He was a deep seated, deep thinking theologian. 09:17 And he loved to debate and commiserate 09:20 with the leading philosophers and academics of the day. 09:22 Sure, I understand. 09:24 So to get to them, he needed to go to the, 09:27 you know, the chief counsel, the pro council, 09:29 the precinct leader 09:32 or the mayor as you say to get to them. 09:36 And so Paul, 09:38 you know, I think Paul has a good sense of humor in here 09:41 because I really think that's what his motivation 09:43 was to get to some of those people. 09:46 Because he thought that 09:48 one of the best ways to get the gospel across 09:51 which Jesus had to rebuke him 09:52 for at some point was to debate 09:55 with these philosophical leaders 09:56 like at Athens. 09:57 What happened at Athens? Yes. 09:59 And he said after that, you know, 10:00 determined to know nothing... 10:02 It was a waste of time. 10:03 Him crucified, yeah. 10:04 Yeah, it was a waste of time and that what really mattered 10:06 was that he needed to stick to the God's form. 10:07 But we need to be careful that I think, 10:10 Christians since we're in a Christian context 10:13 can be guilty of that thinking 10:15 that just telling the story emotionally 10:18 is going to convince people. 10:20 It has to have the force of logic with it. 10:22 If it's not logical, we believe it, 10:25 but to an outsider, it can just seem like nonsense. 10:28 No, and that's true. 10:29 And, you know, that's one of the things 10:31 I really gained from Paul is the very fact that he, 10:35 I mean, it's reading his writings. 10:38 Even he says, "It's hard to understand," 10:40 or Peter says that about Paul, 10:42 his writings are hard to understand. 10:44 Well, but Paul was very competent. 10:47 And Paul wanted us to be competent as Christians. 10:51 Well, one thing... Competency is important. 10:52 One thing Paul does that was is not a characteristic 10:56 of most Jewish writing. 10:58 It's very figurative. Yes. 11:00 And symbolic. 11:01 Well, the Jews believed in the symbol. 11:04 But it was a different line of logic 11:06 than the Jews of that era, certainly who were involved. 11:09 And I should have said analytical 11:10 what I meant to say. 11:12 Yeah. 11:13 But still he was seizing on different assumptions. 11:15 He didn't share the same assumptions 11:17 about reality 11:18 that the Jewish writer would share in my view. 11:20 Yeah. 11:21 And even though he was trained by Gamaliel the Pharisee, 11:26 he seems to... 11:27 In my view, as I read it, 11:29 his whole line of logic 11:30 was more Greco Roman than the Jew. 11:32 My favorite character in the Bible is Peter 11:34 because he's a man's man, right? 11:36 He's a fisherman, he's a burly guy. 11:38 He's braggadocio macho. 11:40 I just, you know, I love Peter. 11:41 He's just my favorite character. 11:43 But I love the way Paul takes Peter apart many times and, 11:48 you know, 'cause Paul was the learned man. 11:51 And Peter, you know, was always having struggle, 11:54 you know, with his knowledge and competency. 11:58 And yet God worked with him 12:00 and Paul and Peter finally got along. 12:03 And so, you know, that was... 12:05 That was a declared truth. 12:06 Yeah, he declared the truth. 12:08 That's a good... 12:09 And I told him straight... 12:11 Yes, that's true. 12:12 But Paul was a short, fiery little guy. 12:15 I mean, you know. 12:17 Did we know that he was short? 12:18 Well, we kind of assume that he was, 12:21 maybe that's false. 12:22 You might be right. You might be right. 12:23 We also assume he wasn't married 12:25 and it doesn't quite say that. 12:26 Well... 12:28 You mean, we assumed that he was married 12:29 because he was in the Sanhedrin. 12:32 Well, that's part of the argument 12:33 that he might have been, but there's no evidence. 12:35 Yeah. 12:37 There's no mention about his wife, 12:39 that's for sure. 12:40 No. No. 12:41 Most interesting. 12:43 But one thing I want to discuss at some length, 12:45 and we're gonna have a break in a moment, 12:47 but Paul's statements on obedience to authorities 12:52 and how we regard. 12:53 Oh, it's replete in his writings. 12:55 Yes. 12:56 Yeah, that's been abused I think a lot of times, 13:00 particularly in Europe in World War II. 13:04 Oh, yes. So... 13:05 With Hitler, Adolf Hitler, you know? 13:07 Right. Where do we... 13:09 Well, and also... 13:11 Well, as other regimes, but that was most famous. 13:13 Yes, right. 13:14 But how do we relate to that 13:16 when there are inevitably conflicts 13:19 between the initiatives of the secular ruler 13:22 and their priorities and the native people of faith 13:26 not just Christians to be true to their faith tradition 13:28 in the conflict? 13:30 Do you just give way to the secular authorities? 13:32 Well, I think Francis Schaeffer was right to write 13:36 his Christian manifesto in one sense. 13:38 And that is there is a time for Christians 13:42 when we're forced to go against all odds 13:45 and against all the foundations of our faith 13:48 to stand up and be heard. 13:49 So I think that... 13:52 Yes, I think there's a time and a place for everything. 13:55 I would apply Ecclesiastes 3, 13:57 Solomon statement 13:59 that there's a time for everything under the sun. 14:00 You are reaching back with Francis Schaeffer. 14:03 I've been following his son, he's now... 14:05 Paul Franki, yes. 14:08 We'll take a break and come back 14:09 and finish this discussion on how we relate to authorities 14:13 because we have to pray for them. 14:15 We have to support them. 14:16 And yet we also have to serve God. 14:18 We'll be back shortly. |
Revised 2020-02-15