Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is the
program bringing you news,
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views, analysis,
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and information on
religious liberty in the US
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and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty Magazine,
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and my guest on this
program, Greg Hamilton,
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President of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association.
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And man with his hand on
the Bible for good reason
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because let's talk
about religious liberty
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from a biblical perspective
and maybe get some cues
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from some of the
things that we find there.
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And in particular,
sorry to cut you off,
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but how we can relate
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and how they did
relate to authorities
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from a church state
authority point of view?
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I view
Religious Liberty ministry
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as more than anything
else as ambassadorial.
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Meaning, that it's very
important to meet people
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at high levels of government
and represent the cause,
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the message our mission
well, very well, in fact.
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And so it's
important that we be practical.
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And one of the
things I've discovered
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in terms of meeting legislators
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is and I know this
sounds really funny,
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but it's just the
opposite of what you think.
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If you think that all they want
to know is how much you care,
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that's not true.
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They want to know
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if you really know
what you're talking about.
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Yeah. Competency is number one.
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Now I would say
a dose of kindness
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needs to be there, okay?
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And respectfulness
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and diplomacy is
very much in play here.
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But I think of
Paul's writing in 1 Timothy
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where he talks about urging
that and he says first of all.
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In other words this
is primary importance
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that requests
prayers, intercession,
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and thanksgiving
be made for everyone
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for kings and all
those in authority
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that we may live peaceful,
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that we may live peaceful
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and quiet lives in all
godliness and holiness.
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Now it says this is
good and pleases God,
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our Savior who
wants all men to be saved
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and to come to
knowledge of the truth.
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For there's one
God and one mediator
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between God and man,
the man, Christ Jesus,
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who gave Himself as
a ransom for all men,
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the testimony
given in its proper time.
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But listen to this,
he finishes up with this.
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And for this purpose,
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I was appointed a
herald and an apostle.
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In other words an ambassador.
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I am telling the
truth, I am not lying,
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and I am a teacher of the
true faith to the Gentiles.
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Now what's significant
about that is the fact that
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Paul is saying
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that all those in authority,
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we need to have
people who go forward
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to not only
defend religious freedom
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but to be ambassadors of peace.
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So that we can
also all the rest of us
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can live a life of peace,
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quietness in all
godliness and holiness.
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Really?
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Yeah. Wow!
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You know, that's
resonating with me now.
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As we do every year,
we promoting liberty,
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particularly
within our church circle,
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but it's open to anyone
that reads Liberty Magazine.
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And our theme this
year is or the title
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to our promotion
is called witness.
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Because I think that's...
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Yeah, there you go.
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Good article in there too.
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We've reprinted
one of your articles,
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but, you know, that's
an indispensable element
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of what we're doing.
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We are witnessing on
behalf of God to anyone,
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but particularly
leaders in the community.
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There's something
that jumped out at me
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that I'd never
really thought of before.
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What Paul says
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is that there's one
God and one mediator,
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right after saying that
we pray for the leaders.
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What was the role of
the Caesar in particular
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and of most leaders in that era?
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Go ahead. Not in Israel.
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Israel was a
little bit different.
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But the leader was basically
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the representative of
the God's, the intermediary.
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He even right through till
recently in western history,
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the divine right of kings was
because God had set them there.
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In fact, one
qualification in ancient Rome
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during the Roman Republic
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to become the
proconsul or the chief person,
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which would later become Caesar
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was the fact that you
had to serve as vice Caesar
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and the vice Caesar
was a spiritual role,
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the vice president
was in modern terms
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had to play a spiritual role.
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So that when you became Caesar,
you were already divinity,
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you're already divine.
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So divinity then
occupied the role of Caesar
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and then Caesar
proclaimed himself God.
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That even when he
proclaimed himself God,
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it was an
extension of their thinking.
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He was not the prime God,
he was connected with the gods.
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And by the way...
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He was the conduit for
the people through to...
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Yes.
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And so it never hit
me before Paul in essence
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is sort of not a slap
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but he's showing another way
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of what the secularists
would have thought back then.
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The vice Caesar
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that the position
title was pontifex maximus.
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So that's where the
pope. It's a familiar...
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Yeah, familiar term
there. He introduced the title.
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He didn't get it from Peter.
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He got it from a pagan
concept, from a pagan construct.
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But Paul is putting it
a little bit differently
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and since we
look straight to God,
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we can rather than
the Caesar or someone
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we can intercede with
God on behalf of that ruler.
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Right. It's
really turning things.
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Right, where
he's somewhere around.
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He says, "For there's one God
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and one mediator
between God and men,
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the man Christ Jesus."
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Yeah. Yeah, that's so wonderful.
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And in isolation, of course,
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that's the
editorial ministry of Christ.
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To me the Bible is just full
of these in the New Testament,
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of course, most famously,
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I think, Paul himself
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standing before
those different leaders
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all the way up to Caesar...
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Well.
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Witnessing in a way that,
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you know, they said
he was mad at one point,
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but I think it wasn't,
you know, you're crazy.
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It was just that
you're so enthused with that
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'cause the word enthusiasm
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carries tinge of
spiritual madness.
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Well... But and you...
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Much learning is essential,
so he was very logical.
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He was enthused
and persuasive and,
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you know, we can't
go along with this.
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It even goes
against, they could have said,
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it goes against the
ruling principle of Rome.
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But it was also backhanded
way of basically saying,
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"Hey, guys, there's,
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you know, we serve a
God that's higher than man."
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And...
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Well, yes, that's what
Paul saying in that meeting.
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Yes.
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The God is superior.
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But we still should
pray so that we can all live
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peaceful and quiet lives
and godliness and holiness.
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We need to
recognize earthly rulers
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who God is allowed to rule.
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And so we should work in harmony
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with our prayers to uplift
them before the God of heaven.
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And the God of all the universe.
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And that is
primarily of importance here,
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but it's also
how we engage them.
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It's not just praying for them.
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It's actively
engaged with authorities.
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He doesn't say, "Okay,
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that we should just
sit back and do nothing."
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No, that's true.
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There are some of us
that are called to do that,
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not everybody's called to
Religious Liberty ministry
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or ambassadorial type ministry
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and that's why he says
that those who do, do it,
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so the rest of you can benefit
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from our activity in
the diplomatic world.
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Paul was feeling
this burden upon himself
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and he was writing to Timothy
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who was quite young
at the time to recognize
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basically the role
that he, Paul was playing
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and that he was trying
to mentor Timothy to say,
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"You'll be coming
up in my footsteps
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to take my place someday."
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One thing that
struck me a long time ago
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about Paul's ministry.
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I mean, there was
only one Caesar and,
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you know, he was in chains
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when he spoke to
a group or in that,
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but it's very
obvious as he traveled around
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on his
ministry, missionary tours
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that he seemed to select
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the leading people
of a different town,
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equivalent to the
mayor or whatever.
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Right, or the precinct leader.
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He was going to the
thought leader, the...
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Yeah, the thought
community leader there.
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That way you could
influence people more easily.
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And I think
that's the same today.
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Well, there's one
other reason that Paul,
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you know, you got
to understand Paul
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at his heart of
hearts even though
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he did sit on the Sanhedrin.
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He was a
philosopher of philosophers.
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He was a deep seated,
deep thinking theologian.
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And he loved to
debate and commiserate
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with the leading philosophers
and academics of the day.
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Sure, I understand.
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So to get to them,
he needed to go to the,
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you know, the chief
counsel, the pro council,
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the precinct leader
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or the mayor as
you say to get to them.
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And so Paul,
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you know, I think Paul has
a good sense of humor in here
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because I really think
that's what his motivation
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was to get to
some of those people.
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Because he thought that
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one of the best ways
to get the gospel across
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which Jesus had to rebuke him
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for at some point was to debate
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with these philosophical leaders
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like at Athens.
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What happened at Athens? Yes.
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And he said
after that, you know,
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determined to know nothing...
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It was a waste of time.
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Him crucified, yeah.
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Yeah, it was a waste of time
and that what really mattered
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was that he needed to
stick to the God's form.
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But we need to be
careful that I think,
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Christians since
we're in a Christian context
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can be guilty of that thinking
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that just telling
the story emotionally
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is going to convince people.
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It has to have the
force of logic with it.
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If it's not
logical, we believe it,
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but to an outsider, it
can just seem like nonsense.
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No, and that's true.
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And, you know,
that's one of the things
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I really gained from
Paul is the very fact that he,
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I mean, it's
reading his writings.
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Even he says, "It's
hard to understand,"
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or Peter says that about Paul,
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his writings are
hard to understand.
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Well, but Paul
was very competent.
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And Paul wanted us to
be competent as Christians.
00:10:47.28\00:10:51.11
Well, one thing...
Competency is important.
00:10:51.15\00:10:52.91
One thing Paul does that
was is not a characteristic
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of most Jewish writing.
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It's very figurative. Yes.
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And symbolic.
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Well, the Jews
believed in the symbol.
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But it was a
different line of logic
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than the Jews of that era,
certainly who were involved.
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And I should
have said analytical
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what I meant to say.
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Yeah.
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But still he was seizing
on different assumptions.
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He didn't share
the same assumptions
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about reality
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that the Jewish writer
would share in my view.
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Yeah.
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And even though he was trained
by Gamaliel the Pharisee,
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he seems to...
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In my view, as I read it,
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his whole line of logic
00:11:29.12\00:11:30.45
was more Greco
Roman than the Jew.
00:11:30.49\00:11:32.89
My favorite
character in the Bible is Peter
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because he's a man's man, right?
00:11:34.66\00:11:36.02
He's a
fisherman, he's a burly guy.
00:11:36.06\00:11:38.33
He's braggadocio macho.
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I just, you know, I love Peter.
00:11:40.50\00:11:41.83
He's just my favorite character.
00:11:41.86\00:11:43.63
But I love the way Paul takes
Peter apart many times and,
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you know, 'cause
Paul was the learned man.
00:11:48.54\00:11:51.01
And Peter, you know,
was always having struggle,
00:11:51.04\00:11:54.38
you know, with his
knowledge and competency.
00:11:54.41\00:11:58.81
And yet God worked with him
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and Paul and
Peter finally got along.
00:12:00.42\00:12:03.85
And so, you know, that was...
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That was a declared truth.
00:12:05.49\00:12:06.82
Yeah, he declared the truth.
00:12:06.86\00:12:08.36
That's a good...
00:12:08.39\00:12:09.72
And I told him straight...
00:12:09.76\00:12:11.09
Yes, that's true.
00:12:11.13\00:12:12.46
But Paul was a
short, fiery little guy.
00:12:12.49\00:12:15.63
I mean, you know.
00:12:15.66\00:12:17.07
Did we know that he was short?
00:12:17.10\00:12:18.43
Well, we kind of
assume that he was,
00:12:18.47\00:12:21.04
maybe that's false.
00:12:21.07\00:12:22.40
You might be
right. You might be right.
00:12:22.44\00:12:23.77
We also assume he wasn't married
00:12:23.81\00:12:25.14
and it doesn't quite say that.
00:12:25.17\00:12:26.81
Well...
00:12:26.84\00:12:28.18
You mean, we
assumed that he was married
00:12:28.21\00:12:29.54
because he was in the Sanhedrin.
00:12:29.58\00:12:32.01
Well, that's
part of the argument
00:12:32.05\00:12:33.52
that he might have
been, but there's no evidence.
00:12:33.55\00:12:35.52
Yeah.
00:12:35.55\00:12:37.85
There's no
mention about his wife,
00:12:37.89\00:12:39.22
that's for sure.
00:12:39.25\00:12:40.59
No. No.
00:12:40.62\00:12:41.96
Most interesting.
00:12:41.99\00:12:43.32
But one thing I want
to discuss at some length,
00:12:43.36\00:12:45.19
and we're gonna
have a break in a moment,
00:12:45.23\00:12:47.30
but Paul's statements
on obedience to authorities
00:12:47.33\00:12:52.43
and how we regard.
00:12:52.47\00:12:53.80
Oh, it's
replete in his writings.
00:12:53.84\00:12:55.17
Yes.
00:12:55.20\00:12:56.54
Yeah, that's been
abused I think a lot of times,
00:12:56.57\00:13:00.34
particularly in
Europe in World War II.
00:13:00.38\00:13:04.25
Oh, yes. So...
00:13:04.28\00:13:05.81
With Hitler,
Adolf Hitler, you know?
00:13:05.85\00:13:07.45
Right. Where do we...
00:13:07.48\00:13:09.08
Well, and also...
00:13:09.12\00:13:11.45
Well, as other regimes,
but that was most famous.
00:13:11.49\00:13:13.22
Yes, right.
00:13:13.25\00:13:14.59
But how do we relate to that
00:13:14.62\00:13:16.06
when there are
inevitably conflicts
00:13:16.09\00:13:19.09
between the
initiatives of the secular ruler
00:13:19.13\00:13:22.30
and their priorities and
the native people of faith
00:13:22.33\00:13:26.43
not just Christians to be
true to their faith tradition
00:13:26.47\00:13:28.84
in the conflict?
00:13:28.87\00:13:30.21
Do you just give way to
the secular authorities?
00:13:30.24\00:13:32.77
Well, I think Francis
Schaeffer was right to write
00:13:32.81\00:13:36.11
his Christian
manifesto in one sense.
00:13:36.14\00:13:38.71
And that is there is
a time for Christians
00:13:38.75\00:13:42.75
when we're forced
to go against all odds
00:13:42.78\00:13:45.19
and against all the
foundations of our faith
00:13:45.22\00:13:48.06
to stand up and be heard.
00:13:48.09\00:13:49.79
So I think that...
00:13:49.82\00:13:52.96
Yes, I think there's a
time and a place for everything.
00:13:52.99\00:13:55.23
I would apply Ecclesiastes 3,
00:13:55.26\00:13:57.73
Solomon statement
00:13:57.77\00:13:59.10
that there's a time for
everything under the sun.
00:13:59.13\00:14:00.84
You are reaching back
with Francis Schaeffer.
00:14:00.87\00:14:03.00
I've been following
his son, he's now...
00:14:03.04\00:14:05.77
Paul Franki, yes.
00:14:05.81\00:14:08.14
We'll take a break and come back
00:14:08.18\00:14:09.64
and finish this discussion
on how we relate to authorities
00:14:09.68\00:14:13.78
because we have
to pray for them.
00:14:13.82\00:14:15.42
We have to support them.
00:14:15.45\00:14:16.92
And yet we also
have to serve God.
00:14:16.95\00:14:18.45
We'll be back shortly.
00:14:18.49\00:14:19.82