Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190454A
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00:27 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:29 This is a program designed 00:30 to get you thinking about religious liberty 00:33 and the ramifications for this wonderful principle 00:36 throughout this world of ours in the United States 00:38 often particularly, but everywhere. 00:41 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine. 00:44 And my guest on this program is Greg Hamilton, 00:47 President of the Northwest Religious Liberty Association, 00:51 a friend, someone I've known for a long time, 00:53 and a man with a lot of life ahead of him, 00:58 but it's possible in the near future 01:01 you'll be moving on to other things 01:04 and sort of book ending a career in religious liberty. 01:07 And I wanna spend a little bit of time with you 01:09 as a leader in this area. 01:11 You know, tell me how you got into this area, what led to it? 01:15 What you've done 01:16 and some of your views on religious liberties 01:18 that have come out of your experience? 01:20 It was a childhood dream actually. 01:23 You know, little kids have dreams 01:25 about what they wanna do and become in life. 01:27 Well, for me I wanted to become a professional baseball player, 01:30 or an astronaut, or a fireman, or a racecar driver. 01:33 You know, one of those four. 01:35 And yet as I got a little older, 01:39 by the time I was about 10 years old, 01:42 I began to realize 01:43 our family's heritage was very strong. 01:46 I mean with a name like Hamilton 01:48 for your last name, you kind of wonder, 01:50 are you related to Alexander Hamilton, 01:51 okay, Constitutional founder, all right. 01:54 But you didn't become a gunslinger or... 01:57 No, I tell you. Or a professional duelist. 01:59 No, and then you find out 02:01 that you're related to Julius Caesar's grand besides, 02:04 you say to yourself, I wonder, you know. 02:07 And then as a child I remember this text regarding Esther, 02:10 Mordecai, sort of sarcastically says, 02:15 almost mockingly but thinking well, 02:17 maybe so, you know. 02:20 Says to Esther and who knows, 02:22 but maybe you've been called for such a time as this 02:26 to a royal position. 02:28 Yeah. 02:29 And if you think of everything that Esther had to go through 02:31 which I won't talk about now. 02:33 But I mean, you think about her calling 02:38 and I think of a lot of people's 02:40 calling throughout scripture. 02:42 You know, great men, great women. 02:45 And you say to yourself, does God have a destiny for me, 02:47 and you start thinking about these things. 02:50 It's called the age of awareness 02:52 between 10 and 12 and 15, 02:54 and it's like Christ when He went to the temple, 02:57 you know, and He discovered that He was indeed God. 03:00 I mean, what an amazing awareness, 03:02 what an amazing revelation, a self revelation. 03:05 Yeah. 03:06 That's incredible, so I thought to myself, 03:09 hmm, what is the Lord asking me to do. 03:12 And then there was a man who came to our church 03:15 and spoke and his name was Elder John Stevens. 03:18 And I will never forget... I remember him very well. 03:20 I'll never forget giving a very stirring sermon 03:24 and his defense of religious freedom in America 03:27 and the Constitution and the First Amendment, 03:29 and how that was being usurped by people 03:32 that appeared to be well meaning, 03:35 but really wanted to undo our constitutional system 03:39 and basically set up a Christian nation 03:42 "by law", okay. 03:44 And I thought, wow, that's interesting. 03:46 So, defending religious freedom, 03:48 is that my calling. 03:50 And it just kept gnawing at me, it kept growing in thought, 03:55 and by the time I became a ministerial student 03:58 at Pacific Union College after trying out 04:00 for the Cincinnati Reds by the way. 04:02 Somewhere along the line 04:04 you had a burden to be a minister. 04:05 I, no, not really, not... 04:07 I mean I did, but that was not my thing, 04:10 I had done Bible work for evangelist Tony Moore 04:13 in New York City and Stanford, Connecticut. 04:16 And I had built log homes and taught school up in Canada. 04:19 And that helped quite a bit, especially the teaching, 04:22 the life and teachings of Christ 04:24 to the sophomore class 04:25 involving the four gospels and the book, 04:27 The Desire of Ages by Ellen G. White. 04:30 That inspired me very, very much, 04:32 but I think what really inspired me 04:35 into religious liberty 04:37 as a ministry calling 04:41 was clearly my sense of pride as an American. 04:47 That our nation was to be 04:50 a shining city on a hill. 04:54 That we were to represent 04:59 pure principles to the world 05:02 that truly would be a light to the world, 05:05 the spreading of the gospel and so forth. 05:08 America had a special mission 05:09 and that we had a special place in it, 05:11 and that perhaps I had a special place in it. 05:13 And yet now that you're deep into religious liberty, 05:17 the philosophy, 05:19 you understand the problems with American exceptionalism? 05:21 Oh, absolutely, and, you know, 05:23 that was the hard thing to learn along the way. 05:26 Absolutely it was a hard thing for me to swallow, 05:28 but when I started reading the gospels, 05:31 especially where Christ said, 05:33 yeah, you see that city and temple that you so admire, 05:36 you disciples that your calling, 05:38 you know that your heart swells up over, 05:40 not one stone will be left upon another. 05:43 I mean, that was one of the most unpatriotic things 05:45 that could be stated. 05:46 That's true. 05:48 And yet Christ was... 05:49 But remember that was what the priest went after him for. 05:51 Yeah. 05:52 They said, he said, he'd destroy the temple. 05:53 Right. 05:55 That was sacrilege of the first degree. 05:56 But he was talking about his body 05:58 being raised back after three days. 05:59 It just hit me, in a way that was more offensive to them 06:01 than Him saying that He was God. 06:02 Yeah, absolutely, so here, 06:05 here Christ was seeing things in prophetic vision, 06:08 and then we've been given a prophetic vision as a church 06:13 to call people to be ready 06:15 for the soon coming of Jesus Christ. 06:16 And I thought, well, 06:18 how does that square up with American nationalism. 06:21 And it doesn't at all. 06:24 And not that I'm unpatriotic, in fact, I'm not. 06:27 I'm very proud to be related to some very significant people 06:31 in American history, who did some great things, 06:33 winning the civil war, giving us our economic system 06:36 and being a constitutional framer. 06:39 You know, those things really make me proud 06:41 but what makes me the most... 06:44 What makes me sober 06:46 and yet realizing the daunting ministry task 06:51 was, you know, recognizing the life of Christ 06:54 and basically His ministry and mission was very short, 06:57 three and a half years. 06:59 And He did not bow to popular persuasion. 07:04 He spoke the truth in love 07:06 and He stayed focused in His mission 07:08 and message were prophetic. 07:10 And I believe that we have to stand up for truth 07:13 though the heavens may fall 07:14 and that's what I believed 07:16 was my calling into this very rewarding 07:20 but difficult ministry we call religious liberty ministry. 07:22 So you became like Paul, 07:24 the heavenly vision sort of drew you on. 07:27 Yeah. 07:29 I just love that when Paul says to Felix, I think he says, 07:31 you know, I was not disobedient to that heavenly vision. 07:34 Right. Right. Yeah. 07:36 So, God opened up many miracles for me. 07:40 I mean, first all I didn't think 07:42 after having a 3.65 GPA at Portland State University 07:46 in communications for my bachelor's degree 07:50 that I would ever, 07:52 after 10 years of pastoral ministry 07:53 in Nevada-Utah Conference 07:55 for the Seventh-day Adventist Church. 07:57 Never thought that I would get 07:58 a full blown academic scholarship 08:01 and a graduate assistantship to pay me 08:04 to actually go to school, 08:05 $1,200 a month to be the student editor 08:08 of the Journal of Church and State. 08:10 The prestigious Journal of Church 08:11 and State of Baylor University 08:12 and to become the right hand man 08:14 of Dr. Derek Davis, 08:17 the chairman of the department 08:18 and the editor of the Journal of Church and State. 08:20 And sometimes author in Liberty magazine. 08:22 Yeah, yeah. 08:23 And so I just, I, you know, it was just, I mean, 08:27 when I was at Baylor University I had to pinch myself 08:29 to say is this really happening, 08:31 is this really true. 08:32 And he always said, don't write about something, 08:36 don't research something that you want to prove, 08:41 or something that is based 08:43 upon your prejudices 08:47 or your world view. 08:48 Don't try to do that, 08:50 write on something fresh and new, 08:52 and even research and write about something 08:56 that you might come out on the opposite side of. 09:00 So what were some of the papers you wrote when you were there? 09:02 Well, I wrote on the life of Ronald Reagan 09:05 and his so called belief in prophecy 09:08 and apocalyptic vision and his grand view of himself 09:12 as being sort of like this messianic savior 09:14 to save the world from nuclear holocaust 09:17 which by the way I thought was very honorable of Reagan, 09:20 no matter how incredible 09:26 it was in terms of credibility. 09:31 Yeah, but nevertheless, you know, I think of that, 09:34 I think about my paper on Charlemagne. 09:36 I grew a new appreciation for Charlemagne. 09:40 Saint Augustine for example I did and Ulrich Zwingli, 09:46 the Protestant reformer who wielded the sword 09:49 in defense of Protestantism against the Catholics 09:51 on the battlefield of Kappel, 09:53 of course, where he lost his life 09:55 and so on and so forth, 09:57 but mostly my graduate, 09:59 my big 402 page graduate work 10:02 on Sandra Day O'Connor's judicial philosophy 10:04 and the role of religion in life. 10:06 Yeah, I've often spoken to you about her, 10:07 I didn't realize you've done a paper on her. 10:08 Yeah, well, that was my... 10:10 It's an year that's gone by but it was very formative to... 10:13 Yeah, it was my thesis last dissertation. 10:15 By the way, it's still an original work, 10:17 nobody has even touched upon her church, 10:19 state or religion clause jurisprudence. 10:23 I'm the only one so, I'm thankful for that 10:27 and I hope to retool it upon retirement 10:30 and getting it published. 10:32 Now this was at Baylor University, 10:35 a Baptist university 10:36 and sadly Baylor doesn't have 10:39 that J.M Dawson Institute anymore. 10:41 It has the research center 10:43 and it still has class offerings there, 10:45 no, it's still functioning. 10:46 And they saw the Journal of Church and State, 10:48 it's just not recognized. 10:50 Last time I visited, 10:51 I couldn't find any physical location. 10:52 It's just not recognized as a degree program, 10:55 it still has the courses. 10:57 But it was a wonderful program, what I'm fishing for, 10:59 you know, our Seventh-day Adventist Church 11:02 has a need for this sort of thing. 11:04 There's some small efforts put toward it, 11:07 but I don't think we have anything 11:08 approaching that church... 11:09 Well, there's some efforts being, 11:11 you know, being considered, 11:14 but it's not being taken too seriously 11:16 by our college administrators at this point. 11:17 Yeah, what I think 11:19 is certainly talking about Seventh-day Adventist, 11:21 I think every pastor 11:22 should receive a grounding in this. 11:24 Yes. 11:25 I mean you got it by your own initiative. 11:28 At least some curriculum that involves it say, 11:31 say a sophomore, 11:36 junior and senior class. 11:38 Like, you know, each one 11:41 being more significant than the other, 11:43 the basics and then on to something more advanced. 11:45 Yeah, I think we ought to offer that. 11:47 And one thing that studies in religious liberty 11:50 give you by necessity 11:52 is a wide ranging look at church's history 11:55 which intersects with secular history 11:57 of governance, laws... 11:59 Current movements. 12:00 It broadens your horizons. 12:02 Including international movements and international law 12:05 which is what we did at Baylor University. 12:07 Right. 12:09 You know, talking to my predecessor Clifford Goldstein, 12:11 a friend we have in common. 12:13 Yes. 12:14 We've nutted through a lot of philosophical stuff 12:17 and I've often brought out that you've got to be careful 12:20 because whether it's a church 12:22 or a political viewpoint of whatever. 12:27 Once you get inside the fairy circle 12:29 of your accepted confines, your ideological confines, 12:34 it's very easy to have a discussion, 12:35 it all make sense. 12:37 But if you step outside, it may be just nonsensical, 12:39 not logical, but certainly not well reasoned enough 12:42 to convince an outsider. 12:44 And I think we're privileged in religious liberty 12:47 that we're dealing in this wider sphere a lot. 12:50 And even on a religious level, 12:52 we're dealing with other churches 12:53 and non-faith groups. 12:55 Secularist should be just as happy 12:58 as a religious person 12:59 with true understanding of religious liberty, 13:01 of separation of church and state 13:03 and the integrity of the individual 13:05 to make up their own mind. 13:06 But you know what? 13:07 I have found as president 13:09 of the Northwest Religious Liberty Association, 13:11 I found it's much easier to coalesce liberal, 13:15 more secular legislators at the state level together 13:20 behind a common cause or bill 13:22 than it has been to bring about religious leaders together. 13:26 That's an irony, but it's true. 13:29 Religious leader said, 13:30 they're often within that circle 13:31 and they have trusted themselves. 13:33 Religious leaders often 13:35 very aggressively disagree with each other 13:39 and won't budge 13:41 and, so it was my privilege over 10 years 13:43 to bring the religious leaders of the state of Oregon together 13:47 around one central bill, 13:49 the Oregon Workplace Religious Freedom Act. 13:51 And... 13:52 We were happy to feature that in Liberty, 13:54 that was a landmark. 13:55 It was 10 years of blood, sweat and tears 13:58 and I'm telling you, 14:00 it was the most gratifying opportunity 14:04 to serve at that level 14:05 with speaker of the house Dave Hunt, 14:08 who was a lowly freshman legislator at the time 14:10 when he became our sponsor. 14:13 And I'm telling you, 14:14 there was nothing more gratifying 14:16 to see that bill finally pass both chambers 14:19 and then not only the governor signing it 14:22 but there was even a threat 14:23 for it to be repealed and so... 14:28 I didn't know that. Yes. 14:30 Let's take a short break and we'll come back 14:31 and flesh out this discussion of this Oregon bill. 14:36 Stay with us. |
Revised 2020-03-02