Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program designed
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to get you thinking
about religious liberty
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and the ramifications
for this wonderful principle
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throughout this world of
ours in the United States
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often
particularly, but everywhere.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine.
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And my guest on this
program is Greg Hamilton,
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President of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association,
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a friend, someone
I've known for a long time,
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and a man with a lot
of life ahead of him,
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but it's possible
in the near future
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you'll be moving
on to other things
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and sort of book ending a
career in religious liberty.
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And I wanna spend a
little bit of time with you
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as a leader in this area.
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You know, tell me how you got
into this area, what led to it?
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What you've done
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and some of your
views on religious liberties
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that have come out
of your experience?
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It was a
childhood dream actually.
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You know,
little kids have dreams
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about what they wanna
do and become in life.
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Well, for me I wanted to become
a professional baseball player,
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or an astronaut, or a
fireman, or a racecar driver.
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You know, one of those four.
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And yet as I got a little older,
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by the time I was
about 10 years old,
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I began to realize
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our family's
heritage was very strong.
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I mean with a name like Hamilton
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for your last
name, you kind of wonder,
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are you related to
Alexander Hamilton,
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okay, Constitutional
founder, all right.
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But you didn't
become a gunslinger or...
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No, I tell you. Or a
professional duelist.
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No, and then you find out
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that you're related to
Julius Caesar's grand besides,
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you say to
yourself, I wonder, you know.
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And then as a child I remember
this text regarding Esther,
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Mordecai, sort of
sarcastically says,
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almost mockingly
but thinking well,
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maybe so, you know.
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Says to Esther and who knows,
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but maybe you've been
called for such a time as this
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to a royal position.
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Yeah.
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And if you think of everything
that Esther had to go through
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which I won't talk about now.
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But I mean, you
think about her calling
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and I think of a lot of people's
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calling throughout scripture.
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You know, great
men, great women.
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And you say to yourself,
does God have a destiny for me,
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and you start
thinking about these things.
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It's called the age of awareness
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between 10 and 12 and 15,
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and it's like Christ
when He went to the temple,
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you know, and He discovered
that He was indeed God.
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I mean, what an
amazing awareness,
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what an amazing
revelation, a self revelation.
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Yeah.
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That's incredible,
so I thought to myself,
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hmm, what is the
Lord asking me to do.
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And then there was a
man who came to our church
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and spoke and his name
was Elder John Stevens.
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And I will never forget...
I remember him very well.
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I'll never forget
giving a very stirring sermon
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and his defense of
religious freedom in America
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and the Constitution
and the First Amendment,
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and how that was
being usurped by people
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that appeared
to be well meaning,
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but really wanted to
undo our constitutional system
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and basically set
up a Christian nation
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"by law", okay.
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And I thought,
wow, that's interesting.
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So, defending religious freedom,
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is that my calling.
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And it just kept gnawing at
me, it kept growing in thought,
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and by the time I
became a ministerial student
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at Pacific Union
College after trying out
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for the
Cincinnati Reds by the way.
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Somewhere along the line
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you had a burden
to be a minister.
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I, no, not really, not...
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I mean I did, but
that was not my thing,
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I had done Bible work
for evangelist Tony Moore
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in New York City and
Stanford, Connecticut.
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And I had built log homes
and taught school up in Canada.
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And that helped quite a
bit, especially the teaching,
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the life and teachings of Christ
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to the sophomore class
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involving the four
gospels and the book,
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The Desire of
Ages by Ellen G. White.
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That inspired
me very, very much,
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but I think what
really inspired me
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into religious liberty
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as a ministry calling
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was clearly my sense
of pride as an American.
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That our nation was to be
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a shining city on a hill.
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That we were to represent
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pure principles to the world
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that truly would be
a light to the world,
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the spreading of
the gospel and so forth.
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America had a special mission
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and that we had a
special place in it,
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and that perhaps I
had a special place in it.
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And yet now that you're
deep into religious liberty,
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the philosophy,
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you understand the problems
with American exceptionalism?
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Oh, absolutely, and, you know,
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that was the hard
thing to learn along the way.
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Absolutely it was a
hard thing for me to swallow,
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but when I started
reading the gospels,
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especially where Christ said,
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yeah, you see that city
and temple that you so admire,
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you disciples that your calling,
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you know that your
heart swells up over,
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not one stone will
be left upon another.
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I mean, that was one of
the most unpatriotic things
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that could be stated.
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That's true.
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And yet Christ was...
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But remember that was what
the priest went after him for.
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Yeah.
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They said, he said,
he'd destroy the temple.
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Right.
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That was sacrilege
of the first degree.
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But he was
talking about his body
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being raised
back after three days.
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It just hit me, in a way
that was more offensive to them
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than Him saying that He was God.
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Yeah, absolutely, so here,
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here Christ was seeing
things in prophetic vision,
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and then we've been given a
prophetic vision as a church
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to call people to be ready
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for the soon
coming of Jesus Christ.
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And I thought, well,
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how does that square up
with American nationalism.
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And it doesn't at all.
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And not that I'm
unpatriotic, in fact, I'm not.
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I'm very proud to be related
to some very significant people
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in American history,
who did some great things,
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winning the civil war,
giving us our economic system
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and being a
constitutional framer.
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You know, those
things really make me proud
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but what makes me the most...
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What makes me sober
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and yet realizing the
daunting ministry task
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was, you know,
recognizing the life of Christ
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and basically His ministry
and mission was very short,
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three and a half years.
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And He did not bow
to popular persuasion.
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He spoke the truth in love
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and He stayed
focused in His mission
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and message were prophetic.
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And I believe that we
have to stand up for truth
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though the heavens may fall
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and that's what I believed
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was my calling
into this very rewarding
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but difficult ministry we
call religious liberty ministry.
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So you became like Paul,
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the heavenly vision
sort of drew you on.
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Yeah.
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I just love that when Paul
says to Felix, I think he says,
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you know, I was not disobedient
to that heavenly vision.
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Right. Right. Yeah.
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So, God opened up
many miracles for me.
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I mean, first all I didn't think
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after having a 3.65 GPA
at Portland State University
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in communications
for my bachelor's degree
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that I would ever,
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after 10 years
of pastoral ministry
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in Nevada-Utah Conference
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for the
Seventh-day Adventist Church.
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Never thought that I would get
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a full blown
academic scholarship
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and a graduate
assistantship to pay me
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to actually go to school,
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$1,200 a month to
be the student editor
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of the Journal
of Church and State.
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The prestigious
Journal of Church
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and State of Baylor University
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and to become the right hand man
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of Dr. Derek Davis,
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the chairman of the department
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and the editor of the
Journal of Church and State.
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And sometimes
author in Liberty magazine.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And so I just, I, you
know, it was just, I mean,
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when I was at Baylor
University I had to pinch myself
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to say is this really happening,
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is this really true.
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And he always said,
don't write about something,
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don't research something
that you want to prove,
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or something that is based
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upon your prejudices
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or your world view.
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Don't try to do that,
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write on
something fresh and new,
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and even research
and write about something
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that you might come out
on the opposite side of.
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So what were some of the papers
you wrote when you were there?
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Well, I wrote on the
life of Ronald Reagan
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and his so called
belief in prophecy
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and apocalyptic vision
and his grand view of himself
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as being sort of
like this messianic savior
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to save the world
from nuclear holocaust
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which by the way I thought
was very honorable of Reagan,
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no matter how incredible
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it was in terms of credibility.
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Yeah, but nevertheless,
you know, I think of that,
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I think about my
paper on Charlemagne.
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I grew a new
appreciation for Charlemagne.
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Saint Augustine for example
I did and Ulrich Zwingli,
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the Protestant
reformer who wielded the sword
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in defense of Protestantism
against the Catholics
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on the battlefield of Kappel,
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of course,
where he lost his life
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and so on and so forth,
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but mostly my graduate,
00:09:57.09\00:09:59.53
my big 402 page graduate work
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on Sandra Day
O'Connor's judicial philosophy
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and the role of
religion in life.
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Yeah, I've often
spoken to you about her,
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I didn't realize
you've done a paper on her.
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Yeah, well, that was my...
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It's an year that's gone by
but it was very formative to...
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Yeah, it was my
thesis last dissertation.
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By the way, it's
still an original work,
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nobody has even
touched upon her church,
00:10:17.71\00:10:19.85
state or religion
clause jurisprudence.
00:10:19.88\00:10:23.08
I'm the only one so,
I'm thankful for that
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and I hope to
retool it upon retirement
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and getting it published.
00:10:30.76\00:10:32.16
Now this was at
Baylor University,
00:10:32.19\00:10:35.23
a Baptist university
00:10:35.26\00:10:36.73
and sadly Baylor doesn't have
00:10:36.77\00:10:39.03
that J.M Dawson
Institute anymore.
00:10:39.07\00:10:41.84
It has the research center
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and it still has
class offerings there,
00:10:43.24\00:10:45.07
no, it's still functioning.
00:10:45.11\00:10:46.91
And they saw the
Journal of Church and State,
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it's just not recognized.
00:10:48.71\00:10:50.05
Last time I visited,
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I couldn't find
any physical location.
00:10:51.45\00:10:52.78
It's just not
recognized as a degree program,
00:10:52.81\00:10:55.78
it still has the courses.
00:10:55.82\00:10:57.15
But it was a wonderful
program, what I'm fishing for,
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you know, our
Seventh-day Adventist Church
00:10:59.99\00:11:02.16
has a need for
this sort of thing.
00:11:02.19\00:11:04.69
There's some small
efforts put toward it,
00:11:04.73\00:11:07.06
but I don't
think we have anything
00:11:07.10\00:11:08.43
approaching that church...
00:11:08.46\00:11:09.80
Well, there's
some efforts being,
00:11:09.83\00:11:11.63
you know, being considered,
00:11:11.67\00:11:14.04
but it's not being
taken too seriously
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by our college
administrators at this point.
00:11:16.34\00:11:17.84
Yeah, what I think
00:11:17.87\00:11:19.21
is certainly talking
about Seventh-day Adventist,
00:11:19.24\00:11:21.08
I think every pastor
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should receive a
grounding in this.
00:11:22.78\00:11:24.11
Yes.
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I mean you got it
by your own initiative.
00:11:25.51\00:11:28.22
At least some
curriculum that involves it say,
00:11:28.25\00:11:31.02
say a sophomore,
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junior and senior class.
00:11:36.06\00:11:38.39
Like, you know, each one
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being more
significant than the other,
00:11:41.03\00:11:43.03
the basics and then on
to something more advanced.
00:11:43.06\00:11:45.87
Yeah, I think we
ought to offer that.
00:11:45.90\00:11:47.60
And one thing that
studies in religious liberty
00:11:47.64\00:11:50.67
give you by necessity
00:11:50.71\00:11:52.04
is a wide ranging
look at church's history
00:11:52.07\00:11:55.14
which intersects
with secular history
00:11:55.18\00:11:57.68
of governance, laws...
00:11:57.71\00:11:59.25
Current movements.
00:11:59.28\00:12:00.85
It broadens your horizons.
00:12:00.88\00:12:02.28
Including international
movements and international law
00:12:02.32\00:12:05.45
which is what we did
at Baylor University.
00:12:05.49\00:12:07.72
Right.
00:12:07.76\00:12:09.09
You know, talking to my
predecessor Clifford Goldstein,
00:12:09.12\00:12:11.86
a friend we have in common.
00:12:11.89\00:12:13.29
Yes.
00:12:13.33\00:12:14.66
We've nutted through a
lot of philosophical stuff
00:12:14.70\00:12:17.47
and I've often brought out
that you've got to be careful
00:12:17.50\00:12:20.90
because whether it's a church
00:12:20.94\00:12:22.80
or a political
viewpoint of whatever.
00:12:22.84\00:12:27.51
Once you get
inside the fairy circle
00:12:27.54\00:12:29.68
of your accepted confines,
your ideological confines,
00:12:29.71\00:12:34.45
it's very easy to
have a discussion,
00:12:34.48\00:12:35.82
it all make sense.
00:12:35.85\00:12:37.19
But if you step outside,
it may be just nonsensical,
00:12:37.22\00:12:39.69
not logical, but certainly
not well reasoned enough
00:12:39.72\00:12:42.39
to convince an outsider.
00:12:42.42\00:12:44.36
And I think we're
privileged in religious liberty
00:12:44.39\00:12:47.33
that we're dealing in
this wider sphere a lot.
00:12:47.36\00:12:50.07
And even on a religious level,
00:12:50.10\00:12:52.20
we're dealing
with other churches
00:12:52.23\00:12:53.57
and non-faith groups.
00:12:53.60\00:12:55.94
Secularist
should be just as happy
00:12:55.97\00:12:58.47
as a religious person
00:12:58.51\00:12:59.84
with true understanding
of religious liberty,
00:12:59.87\00:13:01.48
of separation
of church and state
00:13:01.51\00:13:03.48
and the
integrity of the individual
00:13:03.51\00:13:05.21
to make up their own mind.
00:13:05.25\00:13:06.58
But you know what?
00:13:06.61\00:13:07.95
I have found as president
00:13:07.98\00:13:09.32
of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association,
00:13:09.35\00:13:11.32
I found it's much
easier to coalesce liberal,
00:13:11.35\00:13:15.62
more secular legislators
at the state level together
00:13:15.66\00:13:20.46
behind a common cause or bill
00:13:20.50\00:13:22.86
than it has been to bring about
religious leaders together.
00:13:22.90\00:13:26.47
That's an irony, but it's true.
00:13:26.50\00:13:29.10
Religious leader said,
00:13:29.14\00:13:30.47
they're often within that circle
00:13:30.51\00:13:31.84
and they have
trusted themselves.
00:13:31.87\00:13:33.21
Religious leaders often
00:13:33.24\00:13:35.84
very aggressively
disagree with each other
00:13:35.88\00:13:39.68
and won't budge
00:13:39.71\00:13:41.22
and, so it was my
privilege over 10 years
00:13:41.25\00:13:43.79
to bring the religious leaders
of the state of Oregon together
00:13:43.82\00:13:47.89
around one central bill,
00:13:47.92\00:13:49.79
the Oregon Workplace
Religious Freedom Act.
00:13:49.82\00:13:51.53
And...
00:13:51.56\00:13:52.89
We were happy to
feature that in Liberty,
00:13:52.93\00:13:54.26
that was a landmark.
00:13:54.30\00:13:55.63
It was 10 years of
blood, sweat and tears
00:13:55.66\00:13:58.67
and I'm telling you,
00:13:58.70\00:14:00.04
it was the most
gratifying opportunity
00:14:00.07\00:14:04.01
to serve at that level
00:14:04.04\00:14:05.37
with speaker of
the house Dave Hunt,
00:14:05.41\00:14:08.34
who was a lowly
freshman legislator at the time
00:14:08.38\00:14:10.95
when he became our sponsor.
00:14:10.98\00:14:12.98
And I'm telling you,
00:14:13.01\00:14:14.58
there was
nothing more gratifying
00:14:14.62\00:14:16.05
to see that bill
finally pass both chambers
00:14:16.08\00:14:19.55
and then not only
the governor signing it
00:14:19.59\00:14:22.09
but there was even a threat
00:14:22.12\00:14:23.83
for it to be repealed and so...
00:14:23.86\00:14:28.46
I didn't know that. Yes.
00:14:28.50\00:14:30.03
Let's take a short
break and we'll come back
00:14:30.07\00:14:31.83
and flesh out this
discussion of this Oregon bill.
00:14:31.87\00:14:36.37
Stay with us.
00:14:36.40\00:14:37.74