Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190453B
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00:01 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:02 Before the break, with guest, Greg Hamilton, 00:04 we were remarking on how in the wide world 00:09 there are many individual cases of countries, 00:12 some big countries like India, 00:14 we were just talking about 00:15 where they seem to be the clock is going backwards, 00:18 especially in regard to religion and tolerance and, 00:22 well, tolerance is a bad word to give religion, 00:24 but you know what I mean? 00:25 That's just, the threshold is drifting backwards. 00:27 Yes. 00:29 And I think you'd mentioned China. 00:32 There's a horrible situation with the Muslim speaking 00:36 minority up toward Mongolia, 00:39 but Christians are not getting a good run of it in China. 00:43 Actually, they're doing pretty good. 00:44 Here's what I learned at the Council 00:46 on Foreign Relations 00:47 just about a year and a half ago, 00:49 is that Jameen, 00:52 the premier is moving towards 00:58 recognizing Christianity in the sense 01:01 that it plays a traditional role 01:05 in China's history. 01:08 And so, therefore to uphold 01:12 China's traditions that, 01:15 he thinks that it's best to 01:18 as long as they're willing to sign on with the state 01:21 and become state approved churches... 01:23 Three-Self Movement. 01:24 Including even small groups who will yield to that, 01:27 then home churches, then everything will be fine. 01:31 Well, let's use American language. 01:32 That's establishment. 01:34 It is, it is. But nevertheless... 01:36 And unless you belong to the established church, 01:38 they won't persecute you. 01:39 Well, but it goes along with the same reasoning 01:41 is in their policies. 01:43 With the papacy and with Rome 01:45 and the appointment of cardinals and bishops, 01:48 so there's this been this long going dispute 01:51 dating back to John Paul II, then Pope Benedict, 01:54 and now Pope Francis, 01:56 you know, who has the right to 01:58 basically it's investigator controversy 02:00 of the Dark Ages. 02:01 Basically who has 02:03 It's a good parallel, I like it. 02:04 Who has the right to give the scepter 02:06 and ordain who 02:07 and basically the state of China says, 02:09 "It's our right. 02:10 We will determine 02:12 who the cardinals and bishops are, 02:13 not Rome." 02:15 And so Pope Francis has said, 02:16 you know, after a long dispute says, 02:17 "Okay, fine, 02:19 we give into that, you know, 02:20 to secure peace." 02:21 And what's interesting about that 02:23 is it's now preparing the wait for a state visit to China. 02:27 And there is over something like... 02:32 I forget it is 10 million Catholics in China, 02:36 which is a significant number even though, you know... 02:38 No, when you're talking a billion players. 02:40 Yeah, 1.2 billion, true. 02:41 But it represents about 1% of the country 02:44 or something like that. 02:45 But nevertheless, they're growing 02:47 and that's the significant factor 02:48 is they're growing. 02:50 And so a state visit to, 02:52 say, Beijing would be huge for Pope Francis. 02:55 The same thing is happening actually in Russia. 02:57 The Russian Orthodox Church has got Francis in the Vatican, 03:02 the Holy See to say, 03:04 "Okay, we won't evangelize anymore." 03:06 So evangelism is off the table, 03:08 but we'll recognize you as a traditional religion 03:12 in Russia, a competing religion, 03:13 but nevertheless someone, 03:16 a religion that will live in peaceful coexistence 03:18 with Russian Orthodox and other religions. 03:21 And so that's a good thing. 03:22 So that's preparing a way for a state visit for the pope. 03:27 Yes, as far as low attentions that sounds good, 03:30 but it's actually very retrograde. 03:32 When I was growing up in Australia, 03:34 I used to hear a lot about the missions 03:36 in the South Pacific. 03:38 And it devolved down to, 03:40 I guess I have to give my age roughly, 03:42 in the '50s and '60s. 03:46 In that whole area it devolved down this island 03:49 would be Methodist, 03:51 this island would be Adventist, 03:55 this island would be Catholic. 03:56 And things were fine if you obeyed that, 03:59 but you send a missionary into that island, 04:01 an Adventist missionary go to Methodist. 04:04 It's certainly a cultural mindset. 04:05 Right. 04:06 And I don't think we can agree with that. 04:10 This is a Muslim territory. 04:12 This is a Christian territory. Of course. 04:14 And I still remember years ago 04:17 in South Africa 04:18 trying to interview one of the mullahs. 04:20 He was an advisor to the Rafsanjani in Iran. 04:25 And when I interviewed him, 04:27 he got quite stroppy with me on something. 04:29 So at one point, he said to me he says, 04:31 "If I had been born in America, 04:33 what would I have been born?" 04:34 I said, "Probably Christian." 04:36 But it's still... And he says, 04:37 "If you'd been born in Iran, what would you be?" 04:39 I said, "Probably Muslim." 04:41 He says, "Fine, leave it that way." 04:42 But it still is... 04:43 In other words you're Muslim, 04:45 I mean, you're Christian, I'm Muslim. 04:46 But it's still an improvement. 04:47 That's not another words. 04:49 Well... 04:50 In other words, Adventist, 04:51 Christianity are not being outlawed, 04:53 they are not being persecuted or oppressed. 04:54 Okay, so in that sense, it is... 04:56 An improvement. An improvement. 04:58 Some improvements are elusory, 05:02 like the whole style of communism. 05:04 And China is a hybrid 05:06 but it's still a great communist. 05:07 What I'm saying is that 05:09 Christianity is benefiting in China 05:10 and Islam is losing. 05:12 So there seems to be this... 05:14 Because Christianity is more passive at the moment. 05:16 It seemed Christianity is being embraced 05:19 by strong man right now. 05:21 And communist theory was religion is antithetical 05:24 to progressive 05:29 people that are moving in evolutionary 05:34 way to the dictatorship of the masses if you like. 05:38 And the way to deal 05:39 whether it is Stalin and others, 05:41 you know, kill all the priests, 05:42 you know, he killed 50,000 priests. 05:44 But once they got past that era, 05:46 it's still isolate the old people, 05:48 give them too place to worship at the time 05:51 and restrict them 05:53 and make them socially powerless outside that 05:56 and when they die, it's gone away, 05:58 solves your problem. 05:59 The Three-Self in my use a total control movement. 06:03 And at the Three-Self Movement 06:05 they even say who the preacher is on a given Sabbath 06:08 in an Adventist Church, 06:09 it may not even be the Adventist pastor, 06:12 it may be a minister from another church. 06:14 So it's the form of godliness without the power 06:17 and without the freedom of choice. 06:19 And then if you meet in a home 06:21 which a lot of activated Christians and evangelicals 06:26 and missionary minded Christians are, 06:29 you get caught at that. 06:30 You go to the labor camp where they harvest your organs. 06:33 It's not just, you know, nice, 06:36 regimented lifestyle... 06:38 But what it's trying to do 06:39 and what's happening is my point 06:42 is that it's creating a Christian hegemony 06:45 around this world in terms of alignment with governments, 06:48 okay, in terms of approval. 06:50 It is. That's not my point. 06:53 My point is it's happening and it says phenomenon 06:55 that we need to be watched. 06:56 Right. 06:58 And remember in Nazi Germany, 06:59 that they co-opted the Catholic Church 07:01 and many other at the Lutheran Church 07:03 and many other Protestant Churches. 07:06 They were co-opted and looking at 07:08 in the hindsight of history, 07:09 it was an abomination. 07:11 They enabled the worst excesses of that dictatorship. 07:15 But just because the dictatorship 07:16 isn't quite Hitler revisited 07:18 doesn't mean the same dynamics not at work. 07:20 And I really think religion needs to be careful 07:22 that it doesn't become 07:24 the auxiliary of the past structure 07:26 at the time. 07:27 But what's motivating them? 07:29 Is it their fear of Islam? 07:31 I think that's part of it. 07:34 China, the government, yes. 07:35 They have a fear of all organized religion. 07:37 Well, same thing in India 07:39 and same thing with, yeah, in India. 07:40 And these are real fears. 07:42 I write something on the liberty. 07:43 These are real fears. Yes. Yes. 07:45 They may be approaching it in a paranoid way. 07:47 But there is substance to their fear. 07:50 Yeah. And Russia. 07:52 You mentioned Russia. 07:54 There's substance to Russia's suspicion 07:57 that evangelical Protestant organizations 08:00 are often a beachhead for American 08:03 or Western influence. 08:05 There is substance for that. 08:06 Philip Jenkins at Baylor University, 08:09 he's a famous sociology of religion professor. 08:12 And he writes a book called years ago, 08:16 back around 2001 actually, 08:19 the coming of Christendom 08:21 or the, basically he writes in his book 08:24 is that Islam will take a backseat. 08:28 It may be the fastest growing religion 08:30 and he disputes that, 08:32 he says, "Actually, Christianity 08:33 is growing faster than Islam 08:34 because Islam is on the basis of birth." 08:37 He said, "Everybody presumes that they'll grow faster, 08:39 but Christianity is actually growing faster 08:42 through evangelization." 08:44 And so he proves this statistically, but he says, 08:47 "The big thing that's helping the Christian religion 08:52 is its alignment with governments." 08:55 And he says, "This is what solidifying a Christian, 08:59 hegemony around the world." 09:00 That's true. 09:02 But, of course, Christianity came through... 09:03 But that's been always the crux. 09:05 Power with its alliance with Constantine. 09:06 That's always been the crux of Christianity 09:08 is they've always found a way to empower 09:10 itself through alignment with government. 09:15 But yet you and I are dedicated 09:17 to the opposite, separation of church and state. 09:18 Yes. 09:20 On the radio, I heard the other day 09:21 this politician is saying that, 09:25 you know, how old system our society is, 09:28 and Western civilization is based on Christianity. 09:32 That's just wrong. Yeah. 09:34 If you equate Western liberal democratic tradition 09:38 with Christianity, 09:39 Christianity should have been supportive 09:41 to any good political development. 09:42 But it's not religion on the political march. 09:46 That's the way of the medieval thinking in my view. 09:50 Today, we've talked about the oppression of strong men 09:56 that seems to be reemerging in the world 09:58 and how it's basically being driven 10:01 by a misunderstanding of religious freedom. 10:04 They want religious freedom 10:06 for their sense of religious nationalism, 10:09 Hinduism and in India, 10:13 and of course, Christianity in China. 10:17 And so as Christianity develops 10:19 more of this hegemony 10:21 by aligning itself with governments 10:23 around the world, 10:24 it may seem to be strength to Christianity. 10:28 Attacking itself to the flag, 10:30 but in fact, it's a weakness 10:32 because it limits its spiritual authority. 10:43 I remember, when I was much younger, 10:45 my father came back from a visit to Scandinavia. 10:48 And in one of those countries he photographed 10:51 and remarked endlessly 10:53 on a statue that showed a writhing mass of humanity 10:56 all climbing over each other to get to the top. 11:00 In many ways the world 11:01 as I see it today is sort of fit that bill. 11:05 There's a turmoil, 11:07 a conflict in almost every country 11:10 whether it's over often religion, 11:13 it's over rich versus poor aspirations, 11:16 whether it's over natural calamity or just 11:19 societies often being dragged into the 21st century. 11:25 But all taken together it means 11:27 that there is a crying need 11:29 for people to look to God for security. 11:32 There is a crying need to resolve 11:34 any number of human problems 11:36 most of which it root are spiritual 11:39 and can be easily resolved if people look to God, 11:43 look to His principles, and look to a future, 11:47 a promise future with the Lord. 11:50 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2020-02-15