Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break,
with guest, Greg Hamilton,
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we were remarking on
how in the wide world
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there are many
individual cases of countries,
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some big countries like India,
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we were just talking about
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where they seem to be
the clock is going backwards,
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especially in regard to
religion and tolerance and,
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well, tolerance is a
bad word to give religion,
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but you know what I mean?
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That's just, the
threshold is drifting backwards.
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Yes.
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And I think
you'd mentioned China.
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There's a horrible situation
with the Muslim speaking
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minority up toward Mongolia,
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but Christians are not getting
a good run of it in China.
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Actually, they're
doing pretty good.
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Here's what I
learned at the Council
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on Foreign Relations
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just about a
year and a half ago,
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is that Jameen,
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the premier is moving towards
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recognizing
Christianity in the sense
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that it plays a traditional role
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in China's history.
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And so, therefore to uphold
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China's traditions that,
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he thinks that it's best to
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as long as they're willing
to sign on with the state
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and become state
approved churches...
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Three-Self Movement.
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Including even small
groups who will yield to that,
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then home churches,
then everything will be fine.
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Well, let's use
American language.
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That's establishment.
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It is, it is.
But nevertheless...
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And unless you belong
to the established church,
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they won't persecute you.
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Well, but it goes
along with the same reasoning
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is in their policies.
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With the papacy and with Rome
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and the appointment
of cardinals and bishops,
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so there's this been
this long going dispute
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dating back to John
Paul II, then Pope Benedict,
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and now Pope Francis,
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you know, who has the right to
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basically it's
investigator controversy
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of the Dark Ages.
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Basically who has
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It's a good parallel, I like it.
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Who has the right
to give the scepter
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and ordain who
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and basically the
state of China says,
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"It's our right.
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We will determine
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who the
cardinals and bishops are,
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not Rome."
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And so Pope Francis has said,
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you know, after a
long dispute says,
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"Okay, fine,
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we give into that, you know,
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to secure peace."
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And what's
interesting about that
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is it's now preparing the
wait for a state visit to China.
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And there is
over something like...
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I forget it is 10
million Catholics in China,
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which is a significant
number even though, you know...
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No, when you're
talking a billion players.
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Yeah, 1.2 billion, true.
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But it represents
about 1% of the country
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or something like that.
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But
nevertheless, they're growing
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and that's the
significant factor
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is they're growing.
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And so a state visit to,
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say, Beijing would be
huge for Pope Francis.
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The same thing is
happening actually in Russia.
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The Russian Orthodox Church
has got Francis in the Vatican,
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the Holy See to say,
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"Okay, we won't
evangelize anymore."
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So evangelism is off the table,
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but we'll recognize you
as a traditional religion
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in Russia, a competing religion,
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but nevertheless someone,
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a religion that will
live in peaceful coexistence
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with Russian
Orthodox and other religions.
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And so that's a good thing.
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So that's preparing a way
for a state visit for the pope.
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Yes, as far as low
attentions that sounds good,
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but it's
actually very retrograde.
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When I was
growing up in Australia,
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I used to hear a
lot about the missions
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in the South Pacific.
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And it devolved down to,
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I guess I have to
give my age roughly,
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in the '50s and '60s.
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In that whole area it
devolved down this island
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would be Methodist,
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this island would be Adventist,
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this island would be Catholic.
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And things were
fine if you obeyed that,
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but you send a
missionary into that island,
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an Adventist
missionary go to Methodist.
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It's certainly a
cultural mindset.
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Right.
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And I don't think
we can agree with that.
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This is a Muslim territory.
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This is a Christian
territory. Of course.
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And I still remember years ago
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in South Africa
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trying to
interview one of the mullahs.
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He was an advisor to
the Rafsanjani in Iran.
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And when I interviewed him,
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he got quite stroppy
with me on something.
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So at one point,
he said to me he says,
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"If I had been born in America,
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what would I have been born?"
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I said, "Probably Christian."
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But it's still... And he says,
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"If you'd been born in
Iran, what would you be?"
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I said, "Probably Muslim."
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He says, "Fine,
leave it that way."
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But it still is...
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In other words you're Muslim,
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I mean, you're
Christian, I'm Muslim.
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But it's still an improvement.
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That's not another words.
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Well...
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In other words, Adventist,
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Christianity are
not being outlawed,
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they are not being
persecuted or oppressed.
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Okay, so in that sense, it is...
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An improvement. An improvement.
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Some improvements are elusory,
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like the whole
style of communism.
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And China is a hybrid
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but it's still
a great communist.
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What I'm saying is that
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Christianity is
benefiting in China
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and Islam is losing.
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So there seems to be this...
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Because Christianity is
more passive at the moment.
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It seemed
Christianity is being embraced
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by strong man right now.
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And communist theory
was religion is antithetical
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to progressive
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people that are
moving in evolutionary
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way to the dictatorship
of the masses if you like.
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And the way to deal
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whether it is Stalin and others,
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you know, kill all the priests,
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you know, he
killed 50,000 priests.
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But once they got past that era,
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it's still
isolate the old people,
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give them too place
to worship at the time
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and restrict them
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and make them
socially powerless outside that
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and when they
die, it's gone away,
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solves your problem.
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The Three-Self in my use
a total control movement.
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And at the Three-Self Movement
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they even say who the
preacher is on a given Sabbath
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in an Adventist Church,
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it may not even be
the Adventist pastor,
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it may be a
minister from another church.
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So it's the form of
godliness without the power
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and without the
freedom of choice.
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And then if you meet in a home
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which a lot of activated
Christians and evangelicals
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and missionary
minded Christians are,
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you get caught at that.
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You go to the labor camp
where they harvest your organs.
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It's not just, you know, nice,
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regimented lifestyle...
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But what it's trying to do
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and what's happening is my point
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is that it's
creating a Christian hegemony
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around this world in terms
of alignment with governments,
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okay, in terms of approval.
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It is. That's not my point.
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My point is it's
happening and it says phenomenon
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that we need to be watched.
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Right.
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And remember in Nazi Germany,
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that they co-opted
the Catholic Church
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and many other at
the Lutheran Church
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and many other
Protestant Churches.
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They were
co-opted and looking at
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in the hindsight of history,
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it was an abomination.
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They enabled the worst
excesses of that dictatorship.
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But just
because the dictatorship
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isn't quite Hitler revisited
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doesn't mean the
same dynamics not at work.
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And I really think
religion needs to be careful
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that it doesn't become
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the auxiliary of
the past structure
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at the time.
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But what's motivating them?
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Is it their fear of Islam?
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I think that's part of it.
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China, the government, yes.
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They have a fear of
all organized religion.
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Well, same thing in India
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and same thing
with, yeah, in India.
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And these are real fears.
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I write
something on the liberty.
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These are real fears. Yes. Yes.
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They may be approaching
it in a paranoid way.
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But there is
substance to their fear.
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Yeah. And Russia.
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You mentioned Russia.
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There's substance
to Russia's suspicion
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that evangelical
Protestant organizations
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are often a
beachhead for American
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or Western influence.
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There is substance for that.
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Philip Jenkins at
Baylor University,
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he's a famous
sociology of religion professor.
00:08:09.42\00:08:12.95
And he writes a
book called years ago,
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back around 2001 actually,
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the coming of Christendom
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or the, basically
he writes in his book
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is that Islam
will take a backseat.
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It may be the
fastest growing religion
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and he disputes that,
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he says, "Actually, Christianity
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is growing faster than Islam
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because Islam is on
the basis of birth."
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He said, "Everybody presumes
that they'll grow faster,
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but Christianity is
actually growing faster
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through evangelization."
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And so he proves this
statistically, but he says,
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"The big thing that's
helping the Christian religion
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is its alignment
with governments."
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And he says, "This is
what solidifying a Christian,
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hegemony around the world."
00:08:59.27\00:09:00.60
That's true.
00:09:00.64\00:09:01.97
But, of course,
Christianity came through...
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But that's been always the crux.
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Power with its
alliance with Constantine.
00:09:05.21\00:09:06.54
That's always been
the crux of Christianity
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is they've always
found a way to empower
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itself through
alignment with government.
00:09:10.78\00:09:15.28
But yet you and I are dedicated
00:09:15.32\00:09:17.05
to the opposite,
separation of church and state.
00:09:17.09\00:09:18.92
Yes.
00:09:18.95\00:09:20.29
On the radio, I
heard the other day
00:09:20.32\00:09:21.86
this politician is saying that,
00:09:21.89\00:09:25.69
you know, how old
system our society is,
00:09:25.73\00:09:28.83
and Western civilization
is based on Christianity.
00:09:28.86\00:09:32.73
That's just wrong. Yeah.
00:09:32.77\00:09:34.64
If you equate Western
liberal democratic tradition
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with Christianity,
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Christianity should
have been supportive
00:09:39.77\00:09:41.24
to any good
political development.
00:09:41.28\00:09:42.94
But it's not religion
on the political march.
00:09:42.98\00:09:46.61
That's the way of the
medieval thinking in my view.
00:09:46.65\00:09:49.75
Today, we've talked about
the oppression of strong men
00:09:50.89\00:09:56.22
that seems to be
reemerging in the world
00:09:56.26\00:09:58.69
and how it's
basically being driven
00:09:58.73\00:10:01.43
by a misunderstanding
of religious freedom.
00:10:01.46\00:10:04.50
They want religious freedom
00:10:04.53\00:10:06.27
for their sense of
religious nationalism,
00:10:06.30\00:10:09.94
Hinduism and in India,
00:10:09.97\00:10:12.97
and of course,
Christianity in China.
00:10:13.01\00:10:17.18
And so as Christianity develops
00:10:17.21\00:10:19.81
more of this hegemony
00:10:19.85\00:10:21.75
by aligning
itself with governments
00:10:21.78\00:10:23.22
around the world,
00:10:23.25\00:10:24.65
it may seem to be
strength to Christianity.
00:10:24.69\00:10:28.92
Attacking itself to the flag,
00:10:28.96\00:10:30.43
but in fact, it's a weakness
00:10:30.46\00:10:32.33
because it limits
its spiritual authority.
00:10:32.36\00:10:37.30
I remember, when
I was much younger,
00:10:43.74\00:10:45.17
my father came back
from a visit to Scandinavia.
00:10:45.21\00:10:48.58
And in one of those
countries he photographed
00:10:48.61\00:10:51.31
and remarked endlessly
00:10:51.35\00:10:53.25
on a statue that showed
a writhing mass of humanity
00:10:53.28\00:10:56.79
all climbing over each
other to get to the top.
00:10:56.82\00:11:00.16
In many ways the world
00:11:00.19\00:11:01.52
as I see it today is
sort of fit that bill.
00:11:01.56\00:11:05.86
There's a turmoil,
00:11:05.89\00:11:07.83
a conflict in
almost every country
00:11:07.86\00:11:10.37
whether it's
over often religion,
00:11:10.40\00:11:13.20
it's over rich
versus poor aspirations,
00:11:13.23\00:11:16.40
whether it's over
natural calamity or just
00:11:16.44\00:11:19.31
societies often being
dragged into the 21st century.
00:11:19.34\00:11:25.21
But all taken together it means
00:11:25.25\00:11:27.58
that there is a crying need
00:11:27.62\00:11:29.65
for people to look
to God for security.
00:11:29.68\00:11:32.15
There is a
crying need to resolve
00:11:32.19\00:11:34.32
any number of human problems
00:11:34.36\00:11:36.12
most of which it
root are spiritual
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and can be easily
resolved if people look to God,
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look to His principles,
and look to a future,
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a promise future with the Lord.
00:11:47.10\00:11:50.37
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
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