Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190450B
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00:01 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:03 Before the break with guest Greg Hamilton, 00:05 we were back to basics, 00:08 talk about separation of church and state, 00:10 and the dynamic through the years 00:12 from the founding, the Civil War 00:14 and now even some of the justices seem to be 00:20 restating what the First Amendment 00:23 we thought put down so clearly. 00:25 Where do you think we're going with this? 00:28 Is this just, you know, sound and fury signifying 00:31 nothing to paraphrase or to quote Shakespeare? 00:34 Or is this a harbinger of a real shift in the way 00:39 the church state issues 00:41 are administered legally in the US? 00:42 I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding 00:44 of the religion clauses of the First Amendment. 00:47 You have the Establishment Clause 00:49 where it says, 00:50 Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment, 00:53 an is the root word for any establishment 00:57 or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. 00:59 And those two clauses are vitally important. 01:03 The Free Exercise Clause acts as a attention, 01:09 a intended tension between Free Exercise 01:14 and the separation of church and state. 01:15 The Free Exercise Clause was meant to make sure that 01:18 there wasn't this slide down, 01:20 the slippery slope towards godlessness. 01:23 And then the Establishment Clause was 01:24 to make sure that religion 01:26 or churches didn't control the government, okay? 01:30 And so you have that intention, 01:32 but it's a purposeful intention that basically give us 01:36 what we know to be religious freedom today. 01:39 And unfortunately, 01:40 people don't understand this tension, a needed tension, 01:42 a necessary tension 01:44 between secularism and people of faith 01:46 that has always existed since the founding. 01:49 And so, really, when you think about it, 01:52 it was designed by intent to do that, 01:55 and to unravel that 01:56 to where you have religious freedom 01:59 or the Free Exercise Clause 02:01 to dominate the Establishment Clause 02:03 where conservatives and even some liberals who are, 02:09 what I call, postmodern liberals, 02:12 basically say that are neo conservatives 02:16 in some respects, 02:17 who have come over from the liberal side, 02:19 but they basically say that the founders only intended 02:24 to prevent the establishment 02:25 of a national church and nothing more. 02:27 That states could basically form 02:30 their own favorite churches through taxation, 02:34 that the founders intended that which... 02:36 Okay, 02:38 they didn't necessarily intended it, 02:39 they allowed it to continue at the state level. 02:42 But the states realized that 02:43 this was not good for them. 02:45 They wanted to mirror the Federal Constitution. 02:48 In fact, so much so that when you look at Madison, 02:51 he originally intended in the Federal Constitution 02:53 1787 at the convention, 02:55 to state in the constitution 02:57 that no religion shall be established 03:02 even at the state level. 03:03 That is, he wanted to eviscerate 03:05 even state establishments in the Federal Constitution. 03:07 And they didn't go along with... 03:09 How could they have done that? 03:10 They didn't go along with that. 03:11 They didn't have the power over the states. 03:13 So the state said, 03:14 "Okay, we can do better than the Federal Constitution." 03:16 They one by one, each state started disestablishing 03:19 their state tax supported churches. 03:20 Patrick Henry was their great antagonist 03:22 on this sort of stuff. 03:24 Yes, exactly. 03:25 Let me give you a view of history 03:26 that I have never read. 03:29 You've never read? 03:30 No. But I... 03:32 So how could you be accurate, if you haven't read it? 03:33 Well, it's a distillation of many things that I've read. 03:36 Okay. 03:37 I studied Linguistics back in college. 03:40 And it's a curious fact 03:43 that when you talk about Elizabeth in the English, 03:46 you know, old E, English. 03:48 I said that way. 03:50 But you know, people pronounce the old with an E. 03:53 Old E. Yes. 03:55 It's a plain fact 03:57 that Elizabeth in English is long gone for most people, 04:01 but the settlers here in the new world 04:05 and the Appalachians, 04:06 they were culturally hermetically sealed. 04:10 And the way they speak, 04:11 they're as close to Elizabeth in English. 04:14 You know, hillbilly language, right? 04:16 And I believe in a certain parallel 04:20 to that the mindset on religion in this particular, 04:25 there was extent coming up to the US Revolution. 04:30 I believe it's basically been baked 04:32 into the American thinking. 04:35 Because, you know, the ocean now it's nothing, 04:39 you know, Trump can tweet across the world in a moment. 04:42 But, you know, as recently as 100-150 years ago, 04:45 the US was quite isolated. 04:49 So effects that were planted here have sort of... 04:52 World War I and World War II 04:53 brought it out of its isolations. 04:55 You're right. Yeah. 04:56 Politically. Yeah. 04:57 But I think even to this day, 04:59 the average American does not know 05:00 much about the rest of the world, 05:01 doesn't care much about the rest of the world. 05:04 And so this is the carry on. 05:06 And coming up to the US War of Independence 05:11 and establishing the Constitution and so on, 05:13 what was the thinking in England? 05:15 They were barely a couple of generations 05:19 passed a Civil War in England, 05:21 when the big battle was precisely 05:24 between the established church 05:26 that was papal in its tendency that was defending the Puritans 05:31 that was the grand movement 05:33 that was and the Puritan Movement 05:35 was colored by the enlightenment, 05:37 progressive more open views 05:40 that you could even say secular. 05:41 But believe the religion was a private matter. 05:44 The government's not gonna tell me anything on that. 05:46 I believe all of that's planted here 05:49 and that's what was put into the Constitution. 05:53 And ironically, they were super conservative, 05:57 but with this baked in antagonism 06:00 and separation from establishment. 06:02 Yep. 06:03 And you know... I agree with you. 06:05 I think that's a good analysis. 06:06 And further, even at this day, 06:09 we made a comment earlier in this program 06:11 about the moral devolution in the US, 06:12 but the hard facts are, 06:14 you know, in spite of the higher prison rate 06:17 in the US and Hollywood run amok and all the rest, 06:20 compared to the rest of the Western world, 06:22 the US is a priggish, puritanic mindset. 06:27 All right, let me throw something at you. 06:29 John Adams, one of our Constitutional founders wrote, 06:33 "Our constitution was made 06:34 only for a moral and religious people. 06:37 It is wholly inadequate 06:38 to the government of any other." 06:40 What did he mean by that? 06:42 I have an idea of what he meant. 06:44 For me, it's very simple. 06:47 He recognized that people 06:50 in the newly formed United States of America 06:55 basically were somewhat religious. 06:59 In other words, not holy. 07:00 In fact, statistics show that 07:02 only about 13% of the populace actually went to church. 07:06 This is mind blowing, okay? 07:09 But they still professed 07:12 one form of Christianity or another. 07:15 The country was very diverse 07:17 with different Protestant religions 07:19 throughout the country. 07:20 And it was very acceptable. Very accepted. 07:23 They had Jewish people, they had Catholics, 07:26 largely in Maryland and some in Massachusetts. 07:30 And so you had this diversity. 07:32 In fact, at that point there was no known Muslim 07:35 to exist in the United States at that time. 07:39 Except for maybe a few slaves here 07:42 and there that had been, you know, imported. 07:44 Quite a few. Yes, quite a few, who had... 07:47 And that's a whole another study. 07:48 You can easily trace 07:50 Islamic influence through the slave culture... 07:51 Yes, exactly. 07:53 Up and passed the Civil War. 07:54 So what does he mean? 07:55 You know, I really... 07:57 If you study John Adams and you study Thomas Jefferson, 07:59 especially, in their letter correspondence 08:01 back and forth to each other. 08:03 You find that John Adams is quite 08:05 the major skeptic regarding religion. 08:07 In fact, he believed that nothing... 08:08 It could die out after 200 years. 08:10 Nothing in the Bible was inspired 08:12 except the words of Jesus Christ. 08:14 And he even narrowed it down then he says, 08:16 "I even doubt that," he says. 08:17 You know, there's so many translations 08:19 and there's so many... 08:20 You know, we don't know who really wrote what, 08:22 and in the end, 08:23 the only thing we can accept is the beatitudes 08:26 by Jesus Christ as being the only authentic source. 08:29 And Jefferson was much the same. 08:31 You know, and he said, 08:32 "Maybe David's Psalm 23, you know. 08:35 But other than that, you know, he was quite skeptic. 08:37 And these guys were really eggheads. 08:39 I mean, there were really well read. 08:42 And so what did Adams mean? 08:44 I think he was a, 08:46 what you call a utilitarian in his thinking. 08:52 In other words, he was a pragmatist. 08:54 He believed that religion was necessary, okay? 09:00 You could even cite Karl Marx here. 09:02 It's the opioid of the masses here, okay? 09:05 But that's really 09:06 what he was saying nothing different. 09:08 He was saying that 09:10 religion was absolutely essential 09:14 to order in society. 09:17 A well ordered society required religion, 09:20 but it didn't need to be established. 09:22 His answer was no, it should not be established. 09:26 You're right. 09:27 On a certain level they were even cynics and deist, 09:32 of course, were acceptable cynics. 09:35 But I think they were onto something. 09:38 The Constitution is a fairly spare document. 09:41 So spare, hardly anyone seems to be reading it. 09:45 But I think they depended upon the cultural glue 09:49 that they inherited. 09:50 And England, it's Protestantism in its all, 09:56 not all most of its European wars. 09:58 That was its calling. 09:59 So how does that translate to today, however? 10:02 Well, I think this is where we're facing that. 10:04 What is it to be an American? 10:05 I hear about the American dream. 10:08 That's mostly what it is to be an American. 10:10 But that dream is always been a bit of an illusion. 10:13 But if you look at it, 10:14 it's a patriotism built on God and country. 10:16 I'm an apple pie, and you know, God... 10:19 Oh, don't forget Chevrolet. 10:20 And so how do you maintain 10:25 this quite specific form of national identity 10:28 if it's not an acceptable form of religion? 10:31 And I think that's what's at play at the moment. 10:33 Yeah, I agree. 10:34 Lincoln left out baseball and Chevrolet, 10:38 American traditions. 10:39 Well, the Constitutional separation 10:41 of church and state 10:42 is one of those American traditions 10:44 that some people want to do away with. 10:47 They want to favor one religion over another, 10:49 mainly Christianity against all others. 10:52 That's not what the Constitution founders 10:54 intended. 10:55 So I'm thankful for the American tradition 10:58 of the Constitutional separation 11:00 of church and state 11:01 that provides religious freedom for everyone, 11:05 Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, everybody. 11:11 And I'm thankful for America for that reason. 11:16 Over the years, 11:18 I've sat in a number of meetings where, 11:21 I think, well meaning Christians 11:23 that are involved in church state issues have gotten up 11:26 and with some certain vehemence, 11:29 have said, "There is no such thing 11:30 as separation of church and state in the Constitution." 11:34 Well, that sort of true but it's in the same vein 11:38 as it depends what the meaning of is this. 11:41 We know what the Constitution says. 11:44 It's designed to pull away the state 11:47 from being involved in religious matters, 11:49 supporting a state church, 11:51 and telling people what they cannot, cannot do 11:53 from a moral religious perspective. 11:56 Where will this end? 11:58 There's no question 12:00 that many people of good faith and good intent 12:03 are questioning the need to separate church and state. 12:07 Forgetting that Jesus Himself said, 12:10 when faced with the question of money 12:12 and whose loyalty is really at stake, 12:14 He says, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, 12:18 and unto God that are things that are God's." 12:23 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2020-01-16