Welcome back to
the Liberty Insider.
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Before the break
with guest Greg Hamilton,
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we were back to basics,
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talk about
separation of church and state,
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and the dynamic
through the years
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from the founding, the Civil War
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and now even some of
the justices seem to be
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restating what
the First Amendment
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we thought put down so clearly.
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Where do you think
we're going with this?
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Is this just, you know,
sound and fury signifying
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nothing to paraphrase
or to quote Shakespeare?
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Or is this a harbinger
of a real shift in the way
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the church state issues
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are administered
legally in the US?
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I think it's a
fundamental misunderstanding
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of the religion
clauses of the First Amendment.
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You have the
Establishment Clause
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where it says,
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Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment,
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an is the root word
for any establishment
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or prohibiting the
free exercise thereof.
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And those two clauses
are vitally important.
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The Free Exercise
Clause acts as a attention,
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a intended tension
between Free Exercise
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and the separation
of church and state.
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The Free Exercise Clause
was meant to make sure that
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there wasn't this slide down,
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the slippery slope
towards godlessness.
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And then the
Establishment Clause was
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to make sure that religion
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or churches didn't
control the government, okay?
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And so you have that intention,
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but it's a purposeful
intention that basically give us
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what we know to be
religious freedom today.
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And unfortunately,
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people don't understand
this tension, a needed tension,
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a necessary tension
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between secularism
and people of faith
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that has always
existed since the founding.
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And so, really,
when you think about it,
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it was designed
by intent to do that,
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and to unravel that
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to where you
have religious freedom
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or the Free Exercise Clause
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to dominate the
Establishment Clause
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where conservatives and
even some liberals who are,
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what I call,
postmodern liberals,
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basically say that
are neo conservatives
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in some respects,
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who have come over
from the liberal side,
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but they basically say
that the founders only intended
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to prevent the establishment
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of a national
church and nothing more.
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That states could basically form
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their own favorite
churches through taxation,
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that the founders
intended that which...
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Okay,
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they didn't
necessarily intended it,
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they allowed it to
continue at the state level.
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But the states realized that
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this was not good for them.
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They wanted to mirror
the Federal Constitution.
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In fact, so much so that
when you look at Madison,
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he originally intended
in the Federal Constitution
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1787 at the convention,
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to state in the constitution
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that no religion
shall be established
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even at the state level.
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That is, he wanted to eviscerate
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even state establishments
in the Federal Constitution.
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And they didn't go along with...
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How could they have done that?
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They didn't go along with that.
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They didn't have the
power over the states.
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So the state said,
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"Okay, we can do better
than the Federal Constitution."
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They one by one, each
state started disestablishing
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their state tax
supported churches.
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Patrick Henry was
their great antagonist
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on this sort of stuff.
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Yes, exactly.
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Let me give you
a view of history
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that I have never read.
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You've never read?
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No. But I...
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So how could you be accurate,
if you haven't read it?
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Well, it's a distillation
of many things that I've read.
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Okay.
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I studied
Linguistics back in college.
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And it's a curious fact
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that when you talk about
Elizabeth in the English,
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you know, old E, English.
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I said that way.
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But you know, people
pronounce the old with an E.
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Old E. Yes.
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It's a plain fact
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that Elizabeth in English
is long gone for most people,
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but the settlers
here in the new world
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and the Appalachians,
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they were
culturally hermetically sealed.
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And the way they speak,
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they're as close to
Elizabeth in English.
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You know,
hillbilly language, right?
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And I believe in
a certain parallel
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to that the mindset on
religion in this particular,
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there was extent coming
up to the US Revolution.
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I believe it's
basically been baked
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into the American thinking.
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Because, you know, the
ocean now it's nothing,
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you know, Trump can tweet
across the world in a moment.
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But, you know, as
recently as 100-150 years ago,
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the US was quite isolated.
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So effects that were
planted here have sort of...
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World War I and World War II
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brought it out
of its isolations.
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You're right. Yeah.
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Politically. Yeah.
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But I think even to this day,
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the average
American does not know
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much about the
rest of the world,
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doesn't care much
about the rest of the world.
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And so this is the carry on.
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And coming up to the
US War of Independence
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and establishing the
Constitution and so on,
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what was the
thinking in England?
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They were barely a
couple of generations
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passed a Civil War in England,
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when the big
battle was precisely
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between the established church
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that was papal in its tendency
that was defending the Puritans
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that was the grand movement
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that was and
the Puritan Movement
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was colored by
the enlightenment,
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progressive more open views
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that you could even say secular.
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But believe the
religion was a private matter.
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The government's not
gonna tell me anything on that.
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I believe all of
that's planted here
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and that's what was
put into the Constitution.
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And ironically, they
were super conservative,
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but with this
baked in antagonism
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and separation
from establishment.
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Yep.
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And you know...
I agree with you.
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I think that's a good analysis.
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And further, even at this day,
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we made a comment
earlier in this program
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about the moral
devolution in the US,
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but the hard facts are,
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you know, in spite of
the higher prison rate
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in the US and Hollywood
run amok and all the rest,
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compared to the rest
of the Western world,
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the US is a
priggish, puritanic mindset.
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All right, let me
throw something at you.
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John Adams, one of our
Constitutional founders wrote,
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"Our constitution was made
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only for a moral
and religious people.
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It is wholly inadequate
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to the government of any other."
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What did he mean by that?
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I have an idea of what he meant.
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For me, it's very simple.
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He recognized that people
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in the newly formed
United States of America
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basically were
somewhat religious.
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In other words, not holy.
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In fact, statistics show that
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only about 13% of the populace
actually went to church.
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This is mind blowing, okay?
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But they still professed
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one form of
Christianity or another.
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The country was very diverse
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with different
Protestant religions
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throughout the country.
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And it was very
acceptable. Very accepted.
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They had Jewish
people, they had Catholics,
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largely in Maryland
and some in Massachusetts.
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And so you had this diversity.
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In fact, at that point
there was no known Muslim
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to exist in the
United States at that time.
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Except for maybe
a few slaves here
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and there that had
been, you know, imported.
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Quite a few. Yes,
quite a few, who had...
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And that's a
whole another study.
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You can easily trace
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Islamic influence
through the slave culture...
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Yes, exactly.
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Up and passed the Civil War.
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So what does he mean?
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You know, I really...
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If you study John Adams
and you study Thomas Jefferson,
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especially, in their
letter correspondence
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back and forth to each other.
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You find that
John Adams is quite
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the major skeptic
regarding religion.
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In fact, he
believed that nothing...
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It could die
out after 200 years.
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Nothing in the
Bible was inspired
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except the
words of Jesus Christ.
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And he even narrowed
it down then he says,
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"I even doubt that," he says.
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You know, there's
so many translations
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and there's so many...
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You know, we don't
know who really wrote what,
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and in the end,
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the only thing we can
accept is the beatitudes
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by Jesus Christ as being
the only authentic source.
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And Jefferson was much the same.
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You know, and he said,
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"Maybe David's
Psalm 23, you know.
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But other than that, you
know, he was quite skeptic.
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And these guys
were really eggheads.
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I mean, there
were really well read.
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And so what did Adams mean?
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I think he was a,
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what you call a
utilitarian in his thinking.
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In other words,
he was a pragmatist.
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He believed that
religion was necessary, okay?
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You could even
cite Karl Marx here.
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It's the opioid of
the masses here, okay?
00:09:02.64\00:09:05.37
But that's really
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what he was
saying nothing different.
00:09:06.78\00:09:08.68
He was saying that
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religion was
absolutely essential
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to order in society.
00:09:14.88\00:09:17.19
A well ordered
society required religion,
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but it didn't
need to be established.
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His answer was no, it
should not be established.
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You're right.
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On a certain level they
were even cynics and deist,
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of course, were
acceptable cynics.
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But I think they
were onto something.
00:09:35.87\00:09:38.07
The Constitution is a
fairly spare document.
00:09:38.11\00:09:41.91
So spare, hardly
anyone seems to be reading it.
00:09:41.94\00:09:45.48
But I think they
depended upon the cultural glue
00:09:45.51\00:09:49.22
that they inherited.
00:09:49.25\00:09:50.85
And England, it's
Protestantism in its all,
00:09:50.89\00:09:56.36
not all most of
its European wars.
00:09:56.39\00:09:58.09
That was its calling.
00:09:58.13\00:09:59.46
So how does that
translate to today, however?
00:09:59.49\00:10:02.06
Well, I think this is
where we're facing that.
00:10:02.10\00:10:04.27
What is it to be an American?
00:10:04.30\00:10:05.77
I hear about the American dream.
00:10:05.80\00:10:08.60
That's mostly what
it is to be an American.
00:10:08.64\00:10:10.34
But that dream is always
been a bit of an illusion.
00:10:10.37\00:10:13.27
But if you look at it,
00:10:13.31\00:10:14.64
it's a patriotism
built on God and country.
00:10:14.68\00:10:16.88
I'm an apple pie,
and you know, God...
00:10:16.91\00:10:19.05
Oh, don't forget Chevrolet.
00:10:19.08\00:10:20.42
And so how do you maintain
00:10:20.45\00:10:25.05
this quite specific
form of national identity
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if it's not an
acceptable form of religion?
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And I think that's
what's at play at the moment.
00:10:31.19\00:10:33.13
Yeah, I agree.
00:10:33.16\00:10:34.50
Lincoln left out
baseball and Chevrolet,
00:10:34.53\00:10:38.07
American traditions.
00:10:38.10\00:10:39.83
Well, the
Constitutional separation
00:10:39.87\00:10:41.44
of church and state
00:10:41.47\00:10:42.80
is one of those
American traditions
00:10:42.84\00:10:44.77
that some people
want to do away with.
00:10:44.81\00:10:47.21
They want to favor
one religion over another,
00:10:47.24\00:10:49.71
mainly
Christianity against all others.
00:10:49.74\00:10:52.15
That's not what the
Constitution founders
00:10:52.18\00:10:54.38
intended.
00:10:54.42\00:10:55.75
So I'm thankful for
the American tradition
00:10:55.78\00:10:58.49
of the Constitutional separation
00:10:58.52\00:11:00.22
of church and state
00:11:00.26\00:11:01.59
that provides
religious freedom for everyone,
00:11:01.62\00:11:05.09
Jews, Muslims, Catholics,
Protestants, Hindus, everybody.
00:11:05.13\00:11:11.03
And I'm thankful for
America for that reason.
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Over the years,
00:11:16.97\00:11:18.31
I've sat in a
number of meetings where,
00:11:18.34\00:11:21.28
I think, well meaning Christians
00:11:21.31\00:11:23.91
that are involved in church
state issues have gotten up
00:11:23.95\00:11:26.45
and with some certain vehemence,
00:11:26.48\00:11:28.98
have said,
"There is no such thing
00:11:29.02\00:11:30.95
as separation of church
and state in the Constitution."
00:11:30.99\00:11:34.76
Well, that sort of true
but it's in the same vein
00:11:34.79\00:11:38.49
as it depends what
the meaning of is this.
00:11:38.53\00:11:40.96
We know what the
Constitution says.
00:11:41.00\00:11:43.97
It's designed to
pull away the state
00:11:44.00\00:11:47.17
from being involved
in religious matters,
00:11:47.20\00:11:49.40
supporting a state church,
00:11:49.44\00:11:51.01
and telling people
what they cannot, cannot do
00:11:51.04\00:11:53.48
from a moral
religious perspective.
00:11:53.51\00:11:56.71
Where will this end?
00:11:56.75\00:11:58.48
There's no question
00:11:58.51\00:12:00.38
that many people of
good faith and good intent
00:12:00.42\00:12:03.25
are questioning the need
to separate church and state.
00:12:03.28\00:12:07.29
Forgetting that
Jesus Himself said,
00:12:07.32\00:12:10.13
when faced with
the question of money
00:12:10.16\00:12:12.16
and whose loyalty
is really at stake,
00:12:12.19\00:12:14.20
He says, "Render unto Caesar
the things that are Caesar's,
00:12:14.23\00:12:18.17
and unto God that are
things that are God's."
00:12:18.20\00:12:23.27
For Liberty Insider,
this is Lincoln Steed.
00:12:23.30\00:12:25.91