Welcome to the Liberty insider.
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This is the program
that brings you discussion,
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news, updates, and analysis
of religious liberty events
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in the US and around the world.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine,
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and my guest on this program
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is my good friend Greg Hamilton,
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President of the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association.
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How's that for
an intro? Not bad.
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Good friend is a part that
I hope they pay attention to.
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You know, let's talk
about, go back to basics.
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In the United States, at
least with the Constitution,
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we're always talking
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about the
separation of church and state
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which ironically isn't
a term mentioned in it,
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but the First Amendment
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is very plain on
establishing a dynamic
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that would clearly
separate church and state.
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It says,
"Congress shall make no law,
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establishing religion,
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nor prevent the
free exercise thereof."
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The key word is
respecting an establishment.
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So Congress cannot
respect an establishment,
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that means that
Congress cannot endorse support,
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or sanction religion,
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or religious
practice of any kind,
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either to favor one
religion over another,
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or to favor religion in general,
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even over secular norms.
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In other words, the point is,
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is that, they're
to be treated equally,
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both secular and religious.
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Now, how do you do that?
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And the Supreme
Court and Congress
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is not to be
hostile towards religion.
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But is it possible
that some would argue
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that it's all right for
states to establish religion
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and to favor some
religions over others.
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But we were
talking before the program,
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I know what
you're talking about.
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Someone at the
moment on the Supreme Court,
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there is a one voice at
least that's, that suggested.
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Clarence Thomas.
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Yeah. Yes.
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Now, I haven't listened
to everything that he's said,
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although that
could be relatively easy,
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because until his good
friend Justice Scalia died.
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He'd said not one word
publicly on the Supreme Court.
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But Justice Scalia
wouldn't even go that far.
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No.
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But we know there's
a certain continuum.
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Scalia did talk very
openly about this sort of thing.
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And with his death,
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Thomas is really coming
out of the woodwork, I think,
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and you know, he
has logic on this.
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It's not, you
know, just an ad hominem,
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ad hoc sort of an approach,
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but it's
something that we've been
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talking against for
years in Liberty magazine,
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and those that
defend religious liberty.
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It's another way of
bringing in establishment.
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It's another way of
bringing in government
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control of religion,
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quite apart from establishment.
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You don't want government
meddling in religious affairs,
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and I think we're
very close to that.
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There's a mindset
among certain jurists
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that the 14th Amendment,
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which you know, maybe foggy
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for some of our
audience members said it.
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Well, explain it.
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Well, the 14th
Amendment basically...
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Where it came from?
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The way the Supreme
Court has interpreted
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the 14th Amendment.
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It's a Civil War amendment,
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and a civil war amendment,
basically after the civil war.
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It was ratified in
1868 by the States.
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And it basically gave us
the equal protection clause,
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the privileges
and immunities clause.
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It gave us the
due process clause,
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all very important and
basically what they did,
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is they made basic rights
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that were in the
first eight Amendments
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of the Constitution,
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made them
available to the, to women,
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to minorities, and all
people at the state level.
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Was prior to that, it
was not made available.
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In other words,
they had to abide
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by their state constitution,
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whatever states
allowed in terms of rights.
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They, you know, were
ensconced in the law,
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and basically
these ethnic minorities,
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prior to the Civil War
and during the Civil War,
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and women didn't
have basic access
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to the Federal Bill of Rights.
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And so therefore,
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they were oppressed
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by state laws that
did not recognize them.
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Now, you know, we
can discuss it further.
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But there's no question
in the US at the moment,
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the sort of the South
shall rise again mentality.
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Yes, yes.
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Not in the worst sense.
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You know, the
Civil War was long gone.
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But what really is the dynamic,
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is sort of the idea that
these are sovereign states
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and how there the federal
government bothered them.
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It's a Southern manifesto.
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When clearly,
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this is what people
don't quite understand.
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With the end of the Civil War,
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the Constitution was extended
automatically to the states.
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Before there was,
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I think in some
ways, it was a charade.
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But these were sovereign states
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that just did
compacted together.
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Well, that was
the Federalist model.
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To counter issues. Yes, yeah.
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But we are past that.
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And you can
debate that, I think.
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I mean, they are in the South
but on the religious issue,
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and on how that's
legally projected to everybody,
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no matter what
state they live in,
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it's gone.
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The federal law on
separation of church and state,
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the First Amendment principles
do apply to the states now.
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They can't weasel
out of it and say,
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"Oh, you know,
it's a federal deal,
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not our business."
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And that came about through
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the incorporation doctrine that
the Supreme Court came up with,
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both in a case called Everson
versus Board of Education,
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1947.
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And several Free Exercise cases,
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that had to do
with saluting the flag,
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that involved
Jehovah's Witnesses
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who refused and etc, etc.
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But the point is,
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is that there's
constantly a war,
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this view of two
foundings in American history,
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two Constitutional foundings.
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There's the
Constitutional founding
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after the
Revolutionary War, in 1787,
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at the Constitution convention,
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and then there's a
civil war amendments.
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And the Civil War amendments,
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it seems that a
certain group of jurists
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and scholars don't
want to recognize that.
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And so they basically want
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to take us back
to what they view is
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the original
intent of the founding.
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But they even get that wrong,
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because right now,
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there's a number
of scholars out there
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that are starting to
come up with this idea.
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That's actually been
around for a long time,
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this idea that states
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have a right to establish
religion or religious practices
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and to favor some
religions over others.
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And that is a
throwback to the time
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that existed before the
Constitutional founding,
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during the Puritan era
in the colonial period.
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And ever since,
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even during the
Constitutional founding,
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after the Constitution
was ratified in 1789.
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The states
started to disestablish
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their state favored religion,
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tax supported
religion or religions, plural,
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okay, and totally
do away with them,
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with Massachusetts
being the last one in 1833,
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all the rest in the
late 1700s and early 1800s.
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And so this occurred
way before the Civil War.
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Through a natural process,
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but not by federal mandated law.
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Correct.
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The states decided that
this was not the way to go.
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They wanted to mirror
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the federal
establishment clause.
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So let's get to root.
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Why is the shift back now?
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I know it's not just
today or the last few weeks,
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but in recent
history, there has been a...
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Well.
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It can't just be to relitigate
something like the Civil War
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and the dynamic thing.
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No, it's this pendulum swing.
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They think that
somehow secularism,
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secular humanism is starting
to take over the country.
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And so they
have this great fear,
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same sex marriage issues,
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they just feel that somehow
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religion and a
religious way of life,
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religious mores,
religious morals are at,
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are threatened right
now like never before.
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So they feel that this is...
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And that is true.
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It is true to a point.
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But threatened by what?
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By the Constitution,
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or by a devolution
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of moral sensibility in society?
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I would say it's the latter.
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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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It's to alter the Constitution
in order to empower religion
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in a way that was never meant.
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It's not the way to go.
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But there is
something going on now.
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Even as I was coming here
for this filming session today,
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I was listening on the radio,
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and I won't
name the Congressman,
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a Southern
Congressman was on a program.
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I don't think it
was a religious program,
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but they were talking religion.
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And the whole deal
was that the other party,
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he was on a conservative party.
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"The other party are godless,
they're destroying America."
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And he said, "This
is a spiritual battle."
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Yeah.
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Well, you and I like to
think that all public figures
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are motivated by
higher values personally.
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Sure.
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But to see the
partisan divide in the country,
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is coming down to the
godless versus the godly.
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It's really
twisting things, I think.
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There's a book out there
by a Constitutional scholar
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and historian
named Laura Edwards
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from Duke University.
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It's titled,
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"A Legal
History of the Civil War
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and Reconstruction:
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A Nation of Rights."
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And when she talks about is,
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there's a certain mindset that,
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basically she says,
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the reason why the
South lost in the Civil War
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was one basic thing.
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And it's their extreme
view of state's rights.
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They believed, okay.
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You take a local township, okay.
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The township said
to the city government,
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"Who are you?
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We don't recognize
you, we're sovereign.
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We don't have to
answer the city government."
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The city government said
to the county government,
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"We don't have to answer to you.
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Who are you?"
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The county government
said to the state government,
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"Who were you?"
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The state government
said to Jefferson Davis,
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who is the President
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of the Confederate States, okay,
00:10:01.33\00:10:03.63
said, "Who are you?
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We don't have to recognize you."
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And, of course, Jefferson Davis
said to the federal government
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and Lincoln,
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and to the
Congress that was left,
00:10:09.94\00:10:11.97
"We don't have to answer to you,
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we're sovereign."
00:10:13.38\00:10:14.71
What that did is it
created a sense of chaos.
00:10:14.74\00:10:17.65
It created a sense
of total rebellion.
00:10:17.68\00:10:20.68
It totally...
00:10:20.72\00:10:22.35
It's a reason why they lost,
00:10:22.38\00:10:23.72
in fact.
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Well, it's one of the reasons.
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I mean, the
simplest reason they lost
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because they didn't have
the industrial infrastructure
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to sustain along the way.
00:10:29.79\00:10:31.39
And administratively,
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their structure
was not only flawed...
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It was an ad hoc administration.
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It was inherently not workable.
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Okay.
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Something that I read
recently, it surprised me.
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I read a speech.
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I don't have my stuff here
00:10:46.31\00:10:48.58
to refer to because
my eyesight's so bad,
00:10:48.61\00:10:50.98
I can't read it,
even on the desk.
00:10:51.01\00:10:53.21
But I read a speech recently
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by Jefferson
Davis's Vice President,
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whose name I forget,
but will live in infamy.
00:10:58.39\00:11:01.16
I don't remember him either.
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Yeah, real hell raising guy,
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and his famous
speech given around the time
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of the beginning
of the Civil War.
00:11:09.26\00:11:11.53
He said specifically that
they were going to institute
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true religious freedom,
00:11:16.34\00:11:18.51
that the
Constitution was not allowing,
00:11:18.54\00:11:21.54
under the North not
allowing religious freedom.
00:11:21.58\00:11:24.85
So, yes, we can
look at it now and say.
00:11:24.88\00:11:27.55
What was his
definition of religious freedom?
00:11:27.58\00:11:29.75
What you're getting at is...
00:11:29.78\00:11:31.29
His definition of
religious freedom is that,
00:11:31.32\00:11:33.32
religious freedom
is meant to establish
00:11:33.36\00:11:37.03
the Christian religion as
the religion of the nation.
00:11:37.06\00:11:40.73
It's what I call
today, religious entitlement.
00:11:40.76\00:11:43.83
Right.
00:11:43.87\00:11:46.57
A government oversight,
and assistance, and funding,
00:11:46.60\00:11:50.57
and a smile of
favor on a particular form
00:11:50.61\00:11:53.84
of religious practice,
00:11:53.88\00:11:55.58
and maybe
neutrality on the rest,
00:11:55.61\00:11:58.11
but in some cases,
maybe even antagonism.
00:11:58.15\00:12:00.15
I mean, we have what?
00:12:00.18\00:12:01.52
A hundred and thirty some
religions in this country.
00:12:01.55\00:12:03.45
I mean, that's
an enormous amount.
00:12:03.49\00:12:05.59
Who are you going to
favor, one over the other?
00:12:05.62\00:12:07.69
And that's happening
throughout the world.
00:12:07.72\00:12:09.06
We'll talk about
that in another segment.
00:12:09.09\00:12:10.43
I don't really
believe that the framers
00:12:10.46\00:12:14.03
and the founding
fathers quite thought
00:12:14.06\00:12:16.40
that we would come to
this religious pluralism.
00:12:16.43\00:12:19.43
I'll tell you something.
00:12:19.47\00:12:20.80
I've never heard
any of our crusades.
00:12:20.84\00:12:22.17
But I think it's
really the subtext.
00:12:22.20\00:12:26.24
The reason that they were,
00:12:26.27\00:12:28.51
one of the main reasons
00:12:28.54\00:12:29.88
they were so keen
on disestablishment,
00:12:29.91\00:12:32.21
was that the Church of England
00:12:32.25\00:12:34.35
was the auxiliary
to the British Crown,
00:12:34.38\00:12:37.09
that there was a
deep seated antagonism
00:12:37.12\00:12:39.55
to this established church.
00:12:39.59\00:12:40.92
That's true,
00:12:40.96\00:12:42.29
but they viewed
religious pluralism
00:12:42.32\00:12:44.03
in terms of Catholicism
versus Protestantism.
00:12:44.06\00:12:47.10
In other words,
their big, their big enemy,
00:12:47.13\00:12:49.76
so to speak, was Catholicism,
and the pope, and papacy.
00:12:49.80\00:12:53.03
You're right.
00:12:53.07\00:12:54.40
But they also feared, if
you read that right there,
00:12:54.44\00:12:56.00
they also feared Islam,
00:12:56.04\00:12:57.37
which is unfortunate for
both Catholics and Muslims,
00:12:57.41\00:13:01.74
because actually,
00:13:01.78\00:13:03.11
the founding
fathers feared them,
00:13:03.14\00:13:04.48
but they also
respected their religion
00:13:04.51\00:13:06.21
and respected the Quran.
00:13:06.25\00:13:08.22
Well, when did
you read those quotes
00:13:08.25\00:13:11.55
that they feared as well?
00:13:11.59\00:13:12.92
Well, there are
some who didn't. Okay.
00:13:12.95\00:13:14.59
Thomas Jefferson did not...
00:13:14.62\00:13:16.32
No, but I don't
think. I haven't.
00:13:16.36\00:13:18.49
I mean, I don't
know what exist...
00:13:18.53\00:13:19.86
John Adams, George
Washington, James Madisson...
00:13:19.89\00:13:21.46
With the stuff that I've seen,
00:13:21.50\00:13:22.83
where they volunteered opinions.
00:13:22.86\00:13:24.20
Benjamin Franklin.
00:13:24.23\00:13:25.57
It was after the
formation of the United States,
00:13:25.60\00:13:27.07
not before...
00:13:27.10\00:13:28.44
No, some of it was before,
00:13:28.47\00:13:29.80
especially Benjamin
Franklin and John Adams.
00:13:29.84\00:13:31.54
Yeah.
00:13:31.57\00:13:32.91
Obviously, it's not 9/11
where were things changed.
00:13:32.94\00:13:36.04
Right, yes.
00:13:36.08\00:13:37.41
It was that what led up
to the Treaty of Tripoli.
00:13:37.45\00:13:41.48
That's when the new
country got its nose bloodied
00:13:41.52\00:13:46.69
by Islamic piracy
in the Barbary States.
00:13:46.72\00:13:50.59
And there's a classic
scene from a recent book on it,
00:13:50.63\00:13:53.50
where Jefferson and Adams,
00:13:53.53\00:13:57.50
in the early
days of the Republic,
00:13:57.53\00:14:00.17
sat down with the ambassador,
00:14:00.20\00:14:02.90
I think it was from Tripoli.
00:14:02.94\00:14:07.71
And they said,
00:14:07.74\00:14:09.08
you know, please don't
take our sailors hostage,
00:14:09.11\00:14:11.98
and don't harass
us, we're peaceful.
00:14:12.01\00:14:14.02
And he said to them,
00:14:14.05\00:14:15.38
he said, "Since
my holy book says
00:14:15.42\00:14:16.82
that I can capture
and enslave any infidel,
00:14:16.85\00:14:19.02
he says, that's
good enough for me."
00:14:19.05\00:14:21.42
We'll take a break
and be back shortly,
00:14:21.46\00:14:22.99
so stay with us.
00:14:23.02\00:14:24.36