Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190449A
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00:26 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:28 This is your program 00:29 designed to bring you up-to-date 00:31 on religious liberty events, thinking analysis, 00:35 and so you can become knowledgeable 00:37 about these very real events in the US and around the world. 00:41 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine, 00:45 and my guest on the program is Charles Steinberg, 00:48 attorney and vice president 00:50 of the Northwest Religious Liberty Association. 00:53 And... 00:56 I'm gonna put you on the spot. 00:57 What does life mean to you? 00:59 What does life mean to me? 01:01 You know, Lincoln, 01:02 in my Jewish tradition and Jewish heritage... 01:05 L'chaim, isn't it? 01:06 L'chaim, it's a life. 01:09 And then looking through all sorts of different analysis 01:13 by different rabbis over the years 01:15 where during the Inquisition, 01:18 it would be better to convert from Judaism 01:22 to different faith rather than to die 01:26 because life is worth preserving... 01:27 Yes, it's interesting moral conundrum. 01:30 Yeah, even though those Jews that refused to convert 01:33 would refer to them as marranos, 01:34 sort of pigs and, 01:38 and then, in my own view, from my perspective, 01:41 life happened when I was born. 01:44 But then when I look at the biblical view, 01:47 even the child inside Elizabeth's womb, 01:54 reacted at being near Messiah. 01:56 So these are great questions, you know, 01:59 as give birth and there's a living soul. 02:03 And... 02:04 Well, even if you say that, what is the soul? 02:07 I think you're getting it to the abortion issue 02:09 in the United States. 02:12 But what do other countries do with abortion? 02:15 I heard a presidential candidate 02:16 recently say that we need to have abortion more 02:19 in third world countries to help them 02:21 with their climate change problems and economy. 02:24 A candidate? 02:25 A candidate. 02:26 Well, it's interesting you say that 02:28 because the Liberty board recently 02:29 I had an article that in the end 02:31 they found unpalatable that I couldn't run it. 02:35 It was talking about different injections, 02:39 and inoculations, and serums 02:42 that were given to people, 02:43 and I can remember and I stated it 02:47 maybe 30 years ago in India. 02:51 Pharmaceutical companies were working with the government 02:54 to inoculate people against 02:56 some of the diseases at the time. 02:58 And it turned out, came out very openly, 03:00 but after the fact that they were coordinating 03:03 with a government plan too for population control, 03:06 and they were sterilizing. 03:08 For sterilization without knowing. 03:11 Yes, which crosses another moral line as well. 03:18 We have to believe as people of faith, 03:21 and it's buried within the religious liberty concept 03:25 that human beings have natural dignity 03:27 that life is just precious, you don't dispense with it. 03:31 No. 03:32 But I do think the abortion debate 03:35 in the public sphere has gotten tangled up 03:39 with all sorts of religious understandings. 03:44 Have to be valid but I mean, what is the state, 03:46 is the state getting into discussions of what, 03:48 where is the soul and so on. 03:50 It has to have a more utilitarian view of it. 03:54 And I am not pro-abortion, 03:56 but I don't think it's profitable 03:59 to run the idea of when is it the life? 04:02 When is it a human life? 04:04 You know, in the Jewish Old Testament, 04:07 there was actually something else going on 04:08 but the story of Onan 04:11 takes it back before conception. 04:13 Yes. Yeah. 04:15 In fact, 04:17 the Monty Python film once, you remember that? 04:20 I do remember Monty Python. 04:22 Every sperm is precious. 04:25 Yeah. 04:26 And I see it all as God's spectrum of life. 04:29 God is the life giver. 04:30 Yes. 04:32 And I think anybody 04:33 that gratuitously cuts off life, 04:35 whether it's cutting down a tree, 04:38 and I'm not a tree hugger, 04:40 but we're custodians of the earth. 04:42 So if you cut down a tree just for the thrill 04:46 or because it's there, will stamp on an ant, 04:49 and I'm not a Hindu or an ancient mystic, 04:54 or terminate a life even at the earliest stage. 04:58 I think you've set yourself against the God of heaven. 05:01 Well, you know, with regard to life 05:06 when the sperm fertilizes the egg, 05:09 I think you have life there. 05:11 Well, you have life, but is it human? 05:13 Is it protected life under the US Constitution? 05:16 Well... 05:17 Obviously not currently. 05:19 No, and I don't think in totality, 05:23 it's been a good thing to bring in abortion 05:26 into the modern era. 05:27 Because, you know, when Roe v Wade came along, 05:30 it was not really that long 05:33 after the horrors of World War II, 05:36 which was the total play out of the eugenics debate. 05:41 Dr. Josef Mengele, the medical experiments, 05:46 the horrors visited on the Jews, gypsies, 05:50 mentally retarded folks, is just terrible, 05:53 terrible things in the name of medical science. 05:56 Yeah, they were the immediate recipients 05:58 but it was broader than... 05:59 I mean it, the animist against Jews in that case 06:03 as well as the gypsies resulted in this new philosophy 06:08 being used full blown on them, 06:09 but the whole world was enamored with eugenics, 06:12 the US was too whether they were lobotomizations, 06:17 and sterilizations, 06:19 and other gross experiments carried out, 06:22 suited the state they could find out something 06:24 for their more well off citizens 06:27 that wouldn't hurt them, 06:28 but they were playing with lives, 06:30 killing people on occasion. 06:32 And so, yes, 06:36 I don't think that the gratuitous abortions 06:40 then coming in a few decades later 06:42 it can be seen as in itself a positive thing. 06:47 I think on a certain level 06:48 and I'm getting myself into trouble here. 06:50 On a certain level, 06:54 it was part of a good move in recognizing 06:57 the autonomous rights of women 07:00 which had been sort of submerged to that point. 07:03 But along the way, 07:04 I think it sort of enabled 07:07 a diminution of the value of life. 07:10 I agree with that, 07:11 that it is a diminution of the value of life. 07:14 I know the autonomy of a woman, for example in there, 07:17 one of the political slogans, my body my choice. 07:20 What right do you as a man 07:23 or legislature executive 07:25 to tell me I can't have this medical treatment 07:27 from my doctor? 07:29 What right do you have in that? 07:30 And you remember what the reverse 07:31 was big families? 07:33 Yeah. 07:34 And that was a woman's role to be a child bearer. 07:37 Well, big families and then also 07:39 you've got to admit that there were a lot of 07:43 gruesome unhealthy medical clinics. 07:47 I call it back alley abortion as well. 07:48 Oh, yeah, yeah. 07:50 The other side of this argument is, 07:52 but you know, 07:54 if it ends in endangering the mother's life... 07:59 You know, there are different penalties 08:01 in the Bible if you, 08:02 if two men are quarreling and you hit a woman 08:05 and she ends up having a pregnant... 08:07 If you hit a pregnant woman 08:08 and she ends up having an abortion, 08:10 the child doesn't survive, that unintentional fight, 08:14 there's a different penalty. 08:16 Not the same as murdering an adult. 08:19 Yeah, it's a different penalty but we saw... 08:22 But you're a lawyer. 08:24 I'm a lawyer. 08:25 And I know the law looks at that, 08:27 if I'm civilly sued for wrongful death, of course, 08:31 someone's death in some way or if a guy... 08:33 Yeah, I guess the same thing. 08:35 If a company is through its poisonous product 08:38 has caused someone's death. 08:39 When you look at damages, 08:41 you look at what that person is earning, 08:44 or son has the potential but you're looking at the 08:47 in essence at the value, you quantify the value. 08:50 Quantify by a number. 08:51 Now, and what do you do with a clump of cells 08:57 that has not taken a single breath yet, 08:59 not had a single thought? 09:01 There's a trial going on in California 09:04 regardless of what side you're on the abortion. 09:05 And what does it lost if it never existed? 09:09 It did exist. 09:10 And according to the Bible it is, yeah. 09:11 You know what I mean, as a sentient being. 09:13 Yeah, as what we would think a sentient being is. 09:16 There's a battle going on in California, 09:18 or were some undercover reporters 09:20 that had taped operatives of Planned Parenthood, 09:23 they're auctioning off and selling body parts 09:25 and that's actually on tape. 09:27 I mean, when you're looking at levels of proof of evidence 09:31 you have two people that see a car accident. 09:34 One says the light was red, 09:35 the other says the light was green. 09:36 There's no video evidence of that. 09:38 Nowadays, we probably do with Big Brother 09:40 watching everything we do. 09:42 But in this case, there's videotaped 09:45 evidence of them selling 09:47 baby parts on video. 09:53 They were once 09:56 a living organism within the mom. 10:00 Well, you know, our whole society 10:03 is deep into this sort of thinking 10:08 on a level that very few people have trouble with, you know, 10:10 there's an accident, someone's body is dismembered, 10:13 the eye goes here and the heart there and all... 10:17 When there's an accident, it's a death. 10:20 And I'm going to stand for a platform, 10:22 death is unnatural. 10:23 Yeah. 10:24 After Eden, death became a natural part. 10:26 I don't have an issue with that, 10:27 but I'm just saying the lines have blurred 10:30 because we've adopted in the modern world 10:33 because of scientific advance 10:34 and that a more utilitarian view 10:36 of what a human organism is. 10:38 They're atheists and forgive me viewers, 10:41 if you're an atheist watching this 10:42 and you're offended by what I'm about to say. 10:44 There are scientific atheists that have published in journals 10:47 that said that without the moral basis 10:50 of a church or some antiquated organization, 10:55 humans should throw off those cells. 11:00 In the 70s there was a science fiction movie 11:03 about Soylent Green. 11:04 Yeah, I remember it. 11:06 And now there's an atheist saying 11:09 there are benefits to humans and in my state Washington, 11:12 we just passed a law saying 11:13 it's lawful for you to compost your human body. 11:16 By the way, I was at a health food store 11:18 the other day and there's a product called soylent. 11:21 No way! 11:23 Somebody has a poor memory of it. 11:24 Yeah, they have a very poor memory. 11:26 It wasn't green, but it was soylent. 11:28 But I believe that human body is sacred. 11:33 I believe that we should never see it selling. 11:35 It's not sacred in itself, 11:37 but it's the temple to the Creator God. 11:40 Yeah. 11:42 That we have a sacred trust with it. 11:44 Yeah, we're made in His image. 11:45 And when you want to desecrate that, 11:48 okay, so after death after death, 11:50 and you know, using body parts here and there 11:53 for the benefit of science or a person can see again 11:56 or a person gets a kidney or person gets a heart 12:00 Those are great breakthroughs in medical science 12:02 and family celebrate that 12:03 that even though their loved one is gone, 12:05 they have the memory of maybe helping 12:07 19 or 20 other people through an organ donor program. 12:11 That's different than taking a fetus 12:12 and selling the body part, okay. 12:14 Remember, in China, 12:17 there's a roaring trade in prisoners' body parts. 12:20 And there's plenty of evidence that to meet demand, 12:25 they will condemn more, more prisoners 12:28 to fill the pipeline at certain times. 12:30 And some of the horrors to get the organs correctly, 12:34 like including skin. 12:37 They do it before they did. 12:39 So that's the outer fringe. 12:42 But it exists in the middle, 12:44 there's there in some poor countries, 12:46 there are clearly documented cases 12:49 of people selling obviously not organs, like a kidney. 12:54 They can sell a kidney 12:57 and even in the US there are transactions 13:02 like surrogate parenting and all the rest. 13:06 They're basically selling the use of your body 13:10 and all the rest so it's been commercialized. 13:12 The morality is being sucked out of it. 13:16 Yeah. 13:17 And so I don't see that as separate 13:19 from how we regard the fetus and yes, 13:23 we need to go back and I think 13:25 while there's a certain logic of free will, 13:29 recognizing free will behind the abortion thing, 13:31 the net effect has been 13:32 an incredible diminishing of respect 13:37 for what a human being is. 13:38 Yeah, incredible reduction of that. 13:42 We'll take a break now and come back 13:43 and continue this discussion. 13:45 So stay with us. |
Revised 2019-11-21