Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190448B
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00:04 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider
00:06 with guest Charles Steinberg. 00:08 Charles, we were really into the weeds 00:11 of the sociological change that we've seen 00:15 and the religious threat that's appeared, 00:18 it appears to some with the gay 00:21 and transgender movement. 00:25 So where do you think it can go because, you know, 00:27 I've tried to trace where it began 00:28 and maybe where it was more appropriate 00:30 to make a moral objection. 00:34 But now it seems almost cruel of people 00:37 of faith looking down then 00:39 as people that they might know better, 00:44 but you know, to some degree it's, 00:46 they don't make 00:47 the same profession necessarily of faith 00:49 and they've made that choice. 00:50 The society is legally supporting it. 00:53 So all you should be able to, or all you should be 00:56 inclined to do is witness to them, 00:58 treat them charitably in Christian, 01:00 in a Christian way, 01:01 but it's a little heavier than that. 01:03 Well, it's a little heavier than that because you're... 01:05 It's something unknown to you. 01:07 If you're a Bible believing Christian, 01:10 you may or may not be in that lifestyle. 01:12 Well, I got to admit freely, I've said it on this program. 01:15 Me personally, in my age, 01:17 you know where I've live through that, 01:19 you know, it gets my stomach 01:21 all fluttery to see this in action. 01:23 It's not, you know, I have a biblical view on it, 01:26 but as well as that the visceral and discomforted, 01:30 but I can't change that. 01:32 I hope that community is not going to even expect me 01:35 because I don't want to. 01:37 But what I mean is, yeah, I'm not comfortable with it, 01:39 but I have to look at it logically, 01:42 and from a point of a fellow creature of God, 01:46 you know, I don't have it rightly to abuse them. 01:51 Already, they've made by my judgment 01:54 not a good choice of life. 01:55 Why should I add to their troubles 01:57 by illustrating bad Christianity. 01:59 Exactly. 02:00 And I'm glad you brought that up 02:02 illustrating bad Christianity. 02:03 Because in the example I gave earlier with law and Maybaum 02:07 and the Oregon Citizen's Alliance to strip 02:10 gay and lesbian people their civil rights, 02:12 that's just wrong. 02:14 But with regard to a duty of a person of faith, 02:19 your duty is to witness to them. 02:21 Yeah. 02:23 And even though you're uncomfortable with it, 02:24 possibly for many reasons, it's not your job to beat them 02:29 over the head with the Bible either. 02:31 No. 02:32 And you're getting close 02:34 to where there is a real threat. 02:35 It's God to judge. 02:36 Now... Go ahead. 02:38 Well, what I was gonna... 02:40 Well, I'm thinking but I'll forget, 02:42 I'm sorry if you forget what you're saying. 02:44 But, you know, the legitimate questions 02:47 have been brought up lately about these... 02:51 I'm trying to think of the term 02:53 but sort of aversion therapy or... 02:56 Oh, conversion therapy? 02:57 Conversion therapy sessions that they strike me 03:01 as less than Christian more like 03:07 criticism sessions 03:09 that were popular for years ago 03:10 for any number of things where a group gets around 03:12 and browbeat someone into submission, 03:14 break their will basically. 03:15 Yeah, that's not very Christian. 03:17 And I have never seen it, 03:19 but it does seem abundantly clear 03:22 that certain groups 03:24 with the cooperation of family members 03:26 often have indulged in this, you know, 03:28 I don't see who would defend that, 03:30 but a sensitive Christian with friends and contacts 03:34 and all the rest. 03:36 it seems to me at some point in the natural discussion 03:38 or you know, without forcing something 03:41 on someone should be allowed and probably compelled 03:45 to make statements like I said, even that statement 03:47 about the cake shop guy, 03:49 that's a way of telling people... 03:50 Yes. 03:51 What view I hold without condemning them outright. 03:54 Yeah. If you... 03:56 I hope that legally, that doesn't come under 04:00 the ban of the state, but I think it might tend to be 04:04 a consequence of what's going on now. 04:07 That will be a restriction of religious liberty. 04:09 It could be a restriction of religious liberty 04:12 in the United States because of what we call 04:15 hate speech laws. 04:17 And if you take some of the verses of the Bible 04:20 and how it rallies against homosexual, 04:21 how it rails against homosexuality, 04:24 I know in other countries there have been pastors 04:27 that have taken that on as there, 04:30 was their hill to die on so to speak, 04:33 and they'll be activists about it 04:35 and take out large paid 04:36 newspaper ads in municipal newspapers. 04:41 And then they're gonna get... 04:43 If you're putting yourself out there, 04:44 you're gonna get shot out. 04:47 And in other countries, I know that 04:49 they have charged pastors with hate crimes 04:52 for quoting parts like that in the Bible, 04:55 but there's a way around that 04:56 and that is to be have Christian charity 05:00 towards another image, 05:01 another person created the image of God just like you. 05:05 And I don't think... 05:06 With different behavior choices. 05:07 And I think, 05:10 even if someone doesn't buy, 05:14 you know, biblical worldview, and Christians and Muslims, 05:17 for example, share a common view 05:19 of the end of time and conditions 05:21 that might accompany that. 05:24 But even if you don't share that, 05:25 I think a lot of social scientists 05:28 and thinking people recognize that 05:30 we're in an interesting point of Western civilization 05:33 where a lot of the norms and structures 05:36 that have been erected are sort of shaky 05:37 and we're moving beyond that. 05:41 And in that environment, 05:46 we need to be very careful 05:48 that we don't major in one thing. 05:52 As an outside observer, I think many in the so called 05:54 Christian Right Moral Majority have done themselves 05:58 a disservice by majoring only in... 06:00 It seems at times only in anti-abortion 06:04 at the expense of other 06:07 religious cultural sensitivities. 06:09 And it's worth remembering that in a wicked age 06:12 that we live in does have a sexuality, 06:15 there's bestiality, 06:16 there's child abuse, there's a gross dishonesty, 06:20 there's mail fraud, you know, 06:22 there's murder and mayhem on every front. 06:28 So it's not so much that we should decide 06:30 to say nothing on that area. 06:32 But we should be speaking to the times, 06:36 not just something that gets us going. 06:39 No, not just to a gut level reaction... 06:42 Which the more that's done. 06:47 Just in the level of psychology, 06:48 people can figure there's something going on 06:51 here beyond their faith. 06:52 And in some cases that might be. 06:54 It might be that they do have something 06:56 more going on besides just their faith. 06:59 If they're just on the one issue thing, 07:01 but then there's also a political power grab, 07:04 or to counter a political power grab 07:06 that they perceive somebody else is doing. 07:08 You know, it's kinda like a chess game, 07:11 but it's for political power and vote to the church, 07:14 when the church wants political power. 07:16 Yes, yes. 07:18 And maybe that's a simple that, 07:20 I don't see it as political power, 07:21 but there's a manipulative power 07:22 over other people in demeaning them. 07:27 And even if people are indulging 07:28 in something that the Bible warns 07:31 in the most stringent manner we should have pity for them. 07:34 Just like Jesus spoke to the crowd. 07:37 I'm sure they were just a move, you know, 07:39 moveable feast of all of the ills of the time. 07:42 Says that His heart was moved with pity when He saw them, 07:44 He had pity for the crowd. 07:47 He had great pity for the human suffering 07:48 and the human condition. 07:49 And we're all, you know, 07:51 our own people and hardened by life, 07:53 but we somehow need to find that I think, 07:57 not a charity because charity concern 07:59 was being enabling, 08:01 you know, like in addiction situations 08:06 you can really further the situation. 08:07 But we need to have a burden for the times 08:12 and we need to be a positive force not a shrill, 08:18 aggravating noise like the siren comes down. 08:20 Everyone knows there's a fire but... 08:21 Yeah. 08:23 Sometimes the siren is as much the problem, 08:24 shut it off. 08:25 Well, and there is legitimate concern 08:27 in religious liberty, 08:28 because if I'm going to use the hate crime legislation, 08:34 if the hate crime legislation comes through, 08:37 and then same sex person 08:41 or same sex couple claims that, 08:44 well, this person here has been persecuting me 08:46 because they've been reading Bible verses to me 08:48 about my behavior choices, you know, 08:52 a Christ like attitude, you know, 08:55 if they're not accepting the message in that town, 08:58 you're supposed to shake the sand out of the sandal 08:59 and move on. 09:01 And that's a clear Bible verse 09:03 and if you are a follower of Christ, 09:05 you're gonna listen to that. 09:07 Well, what did God say? 09:08 My spirit will not always strive with men. 09:09 Yes. Yeah. 09:11 So even God gives up at a certain point. 09:12 Yeah. 09:13 Well, you know, but let's see here, who was it? 09:15 Was it Abraham pleading for his nephew Lot 09:18 in Sodom and Gomorrah? 09:19 And if there are 50 righteous men, 09:21 40, 20, 10, 1? 09:22 Oh, no, God's charity is way beyond 09:25 what we could ever imagine. 09:26 God's charity. 09:28 Humans need to take a little bit of that piece 09:30 because we are created in the image of God, 09:32 and we need to have more love 09:33 and Christian charity toward our brother, 09:35 even if they behave in a way that we don't like. 09:39 Well, that's exactly how a Christian should respond 09:42 with charity and an understanding, 09:43 but not condemnation. 09:45 You know, Jesus said, "Go and sin no more." 09:49 Yeah, with one of the things 09:51 about being a Bible believing Christian 09:53 that can sometimes be hard 09:54 for Bible believing Christian is to act 09:57 with Christian charity and love toward others, 10:00 even though they are behaving differently, 10:03 and one of the great things about religious liberty 10:05 is that we have a large, multicultural, 10:09 diverse opportunity to go and reach other people 10:12 for Christ and fulfill the Great Commission 10:15 to make disciples of all people, 10:18 baptizing them in the name of the Father, 10:19 the Son and the Holy Spirit. 10:21 And it is a great work to do. 10:26 For decades 10:27 after the Protestant Reformation, 10:29 Europe was convulsed by religious wars. 10:34 It's a rather sad retelling if you go back 10:36 and read what happened in Europe, 10:39 millions, as many as 8 million people died 10:42 during that time, fighting for their faith, 10:46 got mixed up with national identity 10:48 and the Treaty of Westphalia 10:50 established the world as we know it. 10:52 Before that really there wasn't anything like 10:54 the modern nation state with borders 10:58 that can be defended and needed to be defended. 11:01 But the takeaway that I have 11:03 from looking at that time 11:05 and the religious component is how futile, 11:09 both Catholic and Protestant of its different stripes. 11:13 I don't think too many of them at the end of the day 11:15 could be seen as truly defending their faith. 11:19 It was murderous differences run amok. 11:25 And today, we don't have religious wars of that 11:28 sort of violence, at least in the West. 11:31 But we do have a conflict of faith versus the other. 11:35 The other can be any number of immoralities that stir us up, 11:39 but we need to remember that 11:40 that sort of violence is futile. 11:43 And that only through deeds of love 11:44 and mercy is the kingdom of God 11:47 and a faith truly advanced 11:50 in any world and certainly in this world. 11:53 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-11-14