Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190448A
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00:27 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:29 This is your program designed for you 00:31 to bring you up to speed, to open your mind, 00:35 to understand religious liberty, 00:37 challenges in the US and around the world. 00:40 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine, 00:44 and my guest, welcome, Charles Steinberg, 00:47 Attorney and Vice President 00:50 of the Northwest Religious Freedom... 00:55 I forgot the full title. 00:57 Northwest Religious Liberty Association. 00:58 That's right. I got on the wrong turf. 01:00 Yeah. 01:01 Let's talk about something 01:04 that I think about more and more 01:05 and I know it's consuming a lot of religious liberty 01:08 advocates in their own church. 01:10 They spend a lot of time discussing the perceived threat 01:13 to religious free exercise posed by the newfound 01:18 gay and transgender rights. 01:21 Yeah. 01:23 That's how it's presented, isn't it? 01:25 It is presented that way. 01:27 A lot of times, there are people, 01:31 gays and lesbians, 01:33 that don't want to be marginalized 01:36 in their civil rights. 01:38 And so civil rights, right to a job, 01:40 civil rights, right to employment, 01:42 civil rights, right to housing, 01:45 civil rights, not to be beaten up 01:46 because of their sexual preference. 01:48 On this, no question, quite apart from religion. 01:51 In Western society, attitudes that, 01:53 yes, I'm sure derived from religion 01:56 just the same way 01:57 that the Germany's mistreatment, 01:59 to use a mild word, of the Jews, 02:01 even especially under the Nazis, 02:03 derived from Martin Luther. 02:05 Yeah. 02:06 But that doesn't make it 02:08 a religious issue narrowly speaking. 02:09 It was prejudice writ large. Yes. 02:10 There's no question that in our society 02:13 a lot of mistreatment of transgenders, 02:17 particularly, and homosexuals and so on came from, 02:20 you know, a filtered 02:22 and then distorted view of Christian views, 02:25 but it was never Christian behavior. 02:27 It was horrible. No. It's horrible. 02:29 And that reminds me, 02:30 while I was in law school in Salem, Oregon, 02:33 there was this man named Lon Mabon 02:35 and Lon Mabon 02:36 was with the Oregon Citizens Alliance. 02:39 And they actually put a ballot title 02:41 on the statewide ballot in Oregon, 02:44 in 1992 or 1993, and it was basically, 02:49 "Should gays and lesbians 02:52 not have equal access to employment 02:54 and not have equal access to housing 02:57 and not have equal access to certain civil rights?" 03:00 And just because the imprimatur, 03:03 the stamp of government approval 03:04 to have that on the ballot, 03:06 it led to acts of violence 03:09 in Salem, Oregon and Eugene, Oregon 03:12 against same sex couples. 03:14 And there was a house that was firebombed in Salem 03:18 that severely injured a gay couple. 03:22 And you know, there's one thing about religion 03:26 and we talked about this earlier, 03:28 that your passions get feverish, 03:31 you know, and you might be inclined to do violence, 03:33 and you need to always check that. 03:35 But I don't believe that a Christian 03:38 should be threatened when a person 03:41 with same sex preference wants a job, 03:45 wants to live in their apartment complex. 03:48 And what we're seeing coming out of the courts now 03:51 is it seems to be a clash between civil rights, 03:55 what we call public accommodations laws, meaning... 04:00 Before 1964, 04:02 if you were of different skin color, 04:05 you couldn't get a motel 04:06 unless it was the black section of town. 04:08 Yeah, yeah. 04:09 And now the similar group of gays and lesbians 04:14 are pushing the envelope and being radical activists 04:20 going into bakeries, "You need to bake a cake 04:23 for my same sex wedding." 04:24 And it sounds like you hold my view 04:26 because it's not quite a real-world situation. 04:29 It's a provocation and they're baiting someone. 04:32 They're baiting someone. 04:33 And unfortunately, the number of cases 04:35 that I've seen, the Christian Baker 04:37 has risen to the bait. 04:39 They've risen to the bait. 04:41 And there's a way to solve it without the conflict. 04:44 And the city of Phoenix, 04:48 Arizona just this week, 04:51 that issue was determined by the Arizona Supreme Court. 04:54 There's these two women, 04:57 had this beautiful wedding invitation company, 05:00 where they make these beautiful wedding invitations, 05:03 and a same-sex couple approached them 05:06 wanting them to do their same-sex wedding invitation. 05:11 And also the city of Phoenix enacted a municipal law 05:16 saying that you can't discriminate 05:17 on the basis of gender or gender preference 05:21 or sex in any business that has a business license 05:24 from the city of Phoenix. 05:25 And you know, here I am, 05:27 we're only a few minutes into the thing 05:28 and I'm already jumping off into a case. 05:29 That's fine. But anyway... 05:31 No. 05:32 One of the reasons that I want the lawyer here to get into it. 05:34 Yeah. 05:35 So what the Arizona Supreme Court said 05:39 is that you cannot compel speech 05:44 from a Phoenix business 05:46 that conflicts with their religion. 05:50 You can't have forced speech. 05:51 And by forcing this business to do wedding invitations 05:57 for a same-sex couple, 05:59 you're forcing them to participate in their wedding 06:02 that they didn't believe 06:04 that they had religious objections to. 06:07 And it was a four to three decision. 06:10 I've learned early on, 06:12 anytime when there's that much dissension, 06:13 there's a lot of room for debate. 06:15 But tell me, just not as a legal matter 06:17 but as a societal matter, 06:20 things like weddings and funerals 06:22 are very personal and emotional times. 06:26 You go with someone simpatico. 06:30 You go with someone that is willing to do it. 06:34 More than willing. Yeah. 06:35 Someone that you're comfortable with. 06:37 Someone that you're family with. 06:38 So it seems to me, in the cake thing, 06:43 for example, I've thought this through 06:45 but if they turned up at my bakery 06:49 and they say, "We want you to make a wedding cake for us," 06:53 and I'm sure in those cases, 06:55 it was fairly obvious that they were a gay couple 06:57 because not always obvious. 07:01 All you need to say 07:02 is "Thank you for choosing my business. 07:04 I'm glad you came here. 07:07 You know, you may not know that I'm a committed Christian 07:12 and you may not know that, you know, in my holy book, 07:15 in the Bible, it speaks of your lifestyle 07:17 and I can't, you know, I'm not particularly 07:22 in favor of your lifestyle. 07:24 But if knowing that you want to work with me, 07:27 I will do the best I can." 07:29 Yeah. 07:30 How has that sort of attitude compromise your faith 07:34 or offended them, but you've made it clear. 07:37 And in the real world, after this testing time 07:39 'cause they're just provoking, that anyone would think, 07:42 "Oh, this person is not on my wavelength. 07:45 Thank you. I'll go away." 07:46 Yeah, go somewhere else. 07:47 Where they're really going to get enthused 07:49 and Twitter around what they want to do. 07:53 Yeah, and that's a very good example 07:56 of the bakery of Lincoln Steed to treat someone 07:59 who doesn't comport with your religious standards 08:03 in your business, that's a very Christian way 08:05 to treat them and to still serve them. 08:08 I would hope so. Yeah. 08:10 But a Christian is under no obligation 08:11 to submerge their view. 08:13 No. 08:15 And that's sort of what's coming out of this. 08:16 Christians are getting the idea that they're being silenced. 08:19 And if they speak badly, they will be silenced 08:21 because it's socially objectionable 08:23 to be hateful in your face 08:26 to someone that is differing on any level. 08:29 Yeah, and that's where I want to go on 08:30 and jump back to the first amendment 08:31 that the timid need to look away. 08:33 "I'm offended" has become a byword 08:35 for "It's my whole world and the world is all about me." 08:38 Yes. 08:39 And that's not a healthy way to have society. 08:41 No. 08:42 It's not a way 'cause we... 08:44 I believe in a robust-free marketplace of ideas. 08:46 And I have a sincere belief that 08:51 in the bakery of Lincoln Steed, 08:53 you're treating your customers with Christian love. 08:57 And with good bread. And with good bread, good. 08:59 I don't make cakes, but I... 09:01 Is it leavened or unleavened? 09:03 Well, leavened. 09:05 But one of our church leaders, Colin Standish, 09:10 was a good friend of mine, he's dead now, 09:12 when I was growing up. 09:14 Actually, I met my wife through him. 09:16 And I made some bread once to give to my intended 09:22 'cause I used to like baking bread. 09:24 And I remember, he looked at that. 09:25 And so the next thing I know, 09:27 Dr. Standish, she's making bread. 09:28 And every now and again, my wife reminds me, 09:30 "We got into bread making competitions." 09:33 And some of it was good bread. 09:34 Yeah. 09:36 And to just to prove my bona fides of bread, 09:37 I went to Latvia years ago, 09:38 just after the Soviets left and gave them independence. 09:42 And their bread was so good that the second visit I made, 09:46 I took an empty suitcase and brought 60 loaves of bread. 09:50 Did you get a recipe or talk to the baker? 09:51 Jesus did say, "Man shall not live by bread alone." 09:54 Yeah. 09:55 But bread here now is pretty good stuff. 09:57 Yeah. Pretty good stuff. 09:59 Yeah. 10:00 But yeah, it's a great shame, I think, that the church is... 10:04 too many in the church not acting truly as Christians 10:07 or people of faith have sort of come bumping up 10:11 against this new, not a new class, 10:15 but a newly recognized class in our society. 10:17 And I think Christianity or true Christianity is at risk 10:21 as well as an unfortunate conflict that may not be. 10:27 It's a straw man conflict. 10:28 'Cause I've got two views. 10:30 See what you think of it. 10:31 First of all, I find no evidence 10:33 in the early Roman Empire during the persecutions, 10:38 I guess, but particularly 10:40 after Constantine had accepted them. 10:43 The Christians as a societal group 10:47 sort of anathematized people of immorality or whatever, 10:51 they're not going to deal with them. 10:53 The success of Christianity was because 10:56 they were willing to deal with the pagans and ran stores. 10:59 And you can see it today. 11:01 In Islamic Egypt, the cops run the store... 11:05 In fact Christians run... 11:06 They had to change with the community. 11:09 But the only thing I know from early Christianity, 11:12 if a soldier joined, a Roman soldier joined, 11:18 they made him leave the military. 11:19 Yeah. 11:21 So a few things, Lincoln, on that 11:23 is that when the Christian Church, 11:28 the early Christian Church, 11:29 in order to continue to teach the ministry of Jesus 11:32 and spread the gospel, 11:34 you can't do that when you're only 11:36 talking to your own team. 11:39 You're not going to get any more 11:40 people on your team 11:41 if you're only talking to your team. 11:43 Right. 11:44 So it's a matter of public relations, 11:45 how you would operate. 11:47 No, it's more than that. 11:48 What was the great commission just before Jesus left? 11:50 Making disciples of all people. 11:51 Doing disciples of all people. 11:52 He's not saying, "Make disciples of only people 11:54 just like you." 11:55 Right. 11:56 And those are important words. 11:58 Yeah. 11:59 So it's very unfortunate. 12:01 The other thing is a tactical question 12:03 and I'm still amazed at this. 12:07 And I wrote a editorial of Liberty on this once. 12:11 The dispute, growing dispute, 12:12 between people of faith in the US, 12:15 particularly, and the new gay rights 12:18 and gay movement and so on 12:20 obscures something that I have heard 12:22 almost no discussion on as a sociological matter 12:26 to empower bisexuality, gays, and all the rest 12:32 is a social experiment without equal. 12:35 It will have immense ramifications 12:37 on medical care, inheritance rights, 12:39 and all the rest, right? 12:41 Well, yes and no. 12:44 People are free to make their own wills. 12:46 Well, I'm not questioning whether they're free to do it, 12:48 but it has ramifications 12:50 for a cost of running social services and so on. 12:54 That's just a statement. 12:55 I'm not wanting to dispute that. 12:57 Okay. 12:58 It could differ on a degree, but it's huge. 13:02 And, so they could have been a more active discussion 13:04 about what society had to gain or lose from it. 13:07 But it jumped instantly to a civil rights question. 13:11 And now it shifted to a challenge 13:13 between their civil rights and religious rights. 13:16 Yeah. 13:17 But for Christians to object, the time to object 13:20 was when a society that I don't think primarily 13:24 because of Christian considerations 13:26 had societal mores 13:28 that didn't accept this open behavior, right? 13:33 That was the point that Christians 13:35 should have added their voice to the public discussion 13:38 because they had a view on the morality, 13:40 the acceptability of this. 13:41 Once it was declared legal. 13:44 And I remember the turning point 13:45 was Lawrence V Kansas, 13:47 and they got caught 13:48 between privacy, defense privacy, 13:52 or allowing this private behavior 13:55 behind this thing. 13:57 But once we cross that, 13:59 then I don't think Christians or any religious group 14:02 have a license to deny what the society 14:05 and the state through its laws have put in place. 14:08 That's actually correct. 14:10 And they believe the church was active in on that debate. 14:15 Yeah, there was some activity but not to the level now. 14:18 But if it's a church rule or a church ordinance, 14:21 the government doesn't have anything to do with that. 14:23 And that's a matter between you and your God. 14:25 Absolutely. 14:27 We need to take a break. 14:28 We'll be back shortly to continue this discussion, 14:31 which I'm sure as you can see already is topical. |
Revised 2019-11-14