Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:00:27.22\00:00:29.32
This is your
program designed for you
00:00:29.36\00:00:31.93
to bring you up to
speed, to open your mind,
00:00:31.96\00:00:35.13
to understand religious liberty,
00:00:35.16\00:00:37.67
challenges in the US
and around the world.
00:00:37.70\00:00:40.67
My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine,
00:00:40.70\00:00:44.21
and my guest,
welcome, Charles Steinberg,
00:00:44.24\00:00:47.78
Attorney and Vice President
00:00:47.81\00:00:50.41
of the Northwest
Religious Freedom...
00:00:50.45\00:00:55.78
I forgot the full title.
00:00:55.82\00:00:57.15
Northwest Religious
Liberty Association.
00:00:57.19\00:00:58.75
That's right. I
got on the wrong turf.
00:00:58.79\00:01:00.26
Yeah.
00:01:00.29\00:01:01.89
Let's talk about something
00:01:01.92\00:01:04.03
that I think about more and more
00:01:04.06\00:01:05.76
and I know it's consuming
a lot of religious liberty
00:01:05.79\00:01:08.36
advocates in their own church.
00:01:08.40\00:01:10.23
They spend a lot of time
discussing the perceived threat
00:01:10.27\00:01:13.84
to religious free
exercise posed by the newfound
00:01:13.87\00:01:18.67
gay and transgender rights.
00:01:18.71\00:01:21.11
Yeah.
00:01:21.14\00:01:23.14
That's how it's
presented, isn't it?
00:01:23.18\00:01:25.45
It is presented that way.
00:01:25.48\00:01:27.78
A lot of times,
there are people,
00:01:27.82\00:01:31.89
gays and lesbians,
00:01:31.92\00:01:33.25
that don't want
to be marginalized
00:01:33.29\00:01:36.49
in their civil rights.
00:01:36.52\00:01:38.26
And so civil
rights, right to a job,
00:01:38.29\00:01:40.80
civil rights,
right to employment,
00:01:40.83\00:01:42.73
civil rights, right to housing,
00:01:42.76\00:01:45.07
civil rights,
not to be beaten up
00:01:45.10\00:01:46.84
because of their
sexual preference.
00:01:46.87\00:01:48.20
On this, no question,
quite apart from religion.
00:01:48.24\00:01:51.24
In Western
society, attitudes that,
00:01:51.27\00:01:53.78
yes, I'm sure
derived from religion
00:01:53.81\00:01:56.11
just the same way
00:01:56.14\00:01:57.48
that the Germany's mistreatment,
00:01:57.51\00:01:59.58
to use a mild word, of the Jews,
00:01:59.61\00:02:01.68
even especially under the Nazis,
00:02:01.72\00:02:03.65
derived from Martin Luther.
00:02:03.69\00:02:05.45
Yeah.
00:02:05.49\00:02:06.82
But that doesn't make it
00:02:06.86\00:02:08.19
a religious issue
narrowly speaking.
00:02:08.22\00:02:09.56
It was
prejudice writ large. Yes.
00:02:09.59\00:02:10.93
There's no
question that in our society
00:02:10.96\00:02:13.33
a lot of
mistreatment of transgenders,
00:02:13.36\00:02:17.23
particularly, and
homosexuals and so on came from,
00:02:17.27\00:02:20.74
you know, a filtered
00:02:20.77\00:02:22.20
and then distorted
view of Christian views,
00:02:22.24\00:02:25.04
but it was never
Christian behavior.
00:02:25.07\00:02:27.38
It was horrible.
No. It's horrible.
00:02:27.41\00:02:29.31
And that reminds me,
00:02:29.34\00:02:30.75
while I was in law
school in Salem, Oregon,
00:02:30.78\00:02:33.05
there was this
man named Lon Mabon
00:02:33.08\00:02:35.45
and Lon Mabon
00:02:35.48\00:02:36.82
was with the
Oregon Citizens Alliance.
00:02:36.85\00:02:39.19
And they actually
put a ballot title
00:02:39.22\00:02:41.42
on the statewide
ballot in Oregon,
00:02:41.46\00:02:44.33
in 1992 or 1993,
and it was basically,
00:02:44.36\00:02:49.60
"Should gays and lesbians
00:02:49.63\00:02:51.97
not have equal
access to employment
00:02:52.00\00:02:54.87
and not have
equal access to housing
00:02:54.90\00:02:57.34
and not have equal
access to certain civil rights?"
00:02:57.37\00:03:00.58
And just because the imprimatur,
00:03:00.61\00:03:02.98
the stamp of government approval
00:03:03.01\00:03:04.68
to have that on the ballot,
00:03:04.71\00:03:06.41
it led to acts of violence
00:03:06.45\00:03:09.82
in Salem, Oregon
and Eugene, Oregon
00:03:09.85\00:03:12.65
against same sex couples.
00:03:12.69\00:03:14.52
And there was a house
that was firebombed in Salem
00:03:14.56\00:03:18.66
that severely
injured a gay couple.
00:03:18.69\00:03:22.90
And you know, there's
one thing about religion
00:03:22.93\00:03:26.17
and we talked
about this earlier,
00:03:26.20\00:03:28.30
that your passions get feverish,
00:03:28.34\00:03:31.07
you know, and you might
be inclined to do violence,
00:03:31.11\00:03:33.31
and you need to
always check that.
00:03:33.34\00:03:35.68
But I don't
believe that a Christian
00:03:35.71\00:03:38.71
should be
threatened when a person
00:03:38.75\00:03:41.82
with same sex
preference wants a job,
00:03:41.85\00:03:45.59
wants to live in
their apartment complex.
00:03:45.62\00:03:48.92
And what we're seeing
coming out of the courts now
00:03:48.96\00:03:51.26
is it seems to be a
clash between civil rights,
00:03:51.29\00:03:55.20
what we call public
accommodations laws, meaning...
00:03:55.23\00:04:00.20
Before 1964,
00:04:00.24\00:04:02.40
if you were of
different skin color,
00:04:02.44\00:04:04.97
you couldn't get a motel
00:04:05.01\00:04:06.34
unless it was the
black section of town.
00:04:06.37\00:04:08.01
Yeah, yeah.
00:04:08.04\00:04:09.38
And now the similar
group of gays and lesbians
00:04:09.41\00:04:14.78
are pushing the envelope
and being radical activists
00:04:14.82\00:04:20.19
going into bakeries,
"You need to bake a cake
00:04:20.22\00:04:23.06
for my same sex wedding."
00:04:23.09\00:04:24.43
And it sounds
like you hold my view
00:04:24.46\00:04:26.59
because it's not quite
a real-world situation.
00:04:26.63\00:04:29.93
It's a provocation and
they're baiting someone.
00:04:29.96\00:04:32.53
They're baiting someone.
00:04:32.57\00:04:33.90
And unfortunately,
the number of cases
00:04:33.94\00:04:35.80
that I've seen,
the Christian Baker
00:04:35.84\00:04:37.54
has risen to the bait.
00:04:37.57\00:04:39.37
They've risen to the bait.
00:04:39.41\00:04:41.11
And there's a way to
solve it without the conflict.
00:04:41.14\00:04:44.91
And the city of Phoenix,
00:04:44.95\00:04:48.08
Arizona just this week,
00:04:48.12\00:04:51.35
that issue was determined
by the Arizona Supreme Court.
00:04:51.39\00:04:54.76
There's these two women,
00:04:54.79\00:04:57.23
had this beautiful
wedding invitation company,
00:04:57.26\00:05:00.70
where they make these
beautiful wedding invitations,
00:05:00.73\00:05:03.43
and a same-sex
couple approached them
00:05:03.47\00:05:06.23
wanting them to do their
same-sex wedding invitation.
00:05:06.27\00:05:11.54
And also the city of
Phoenix enacted a municipal law
00:05:11.57\00:05:16.01
saying that you
can't discriminate
00:05:16.04\00:05:17.85
on the basis of
gender or gender preference
00:05:17.88\00:05:21.02
or sex in any business
that has a business license
00:05:21.05\00:05:24.39
from the city of Phoenix.
00:05:24.42\00:05:25.75
And you know, here I am,
00:05:25.79\00:05:27.12
we're only a few
minutes into the thing
00:05:27.16\00:05:28.49
and I'm already
jumping off into a case.
00:05:28.52\00:05:29.86
That's fine. But anyway...
00:05:29.89\00:05:31.23
No.
00:05:31.26\00:05:32.59
One of the reasons that I want
the lawyer here to get into it.
00:05:32.63\00:05:33.96
Yeah.
00:05:34.00\00:05:35.56
So what the
Arizona Supreme Court said
00:05:35.60\00:05:39.90
is that you cannot compel speech
00:05:39.93\00:05:44.24
from a Phoenix business
00:05:44.27\00:05:46.44
that conflicts
with their religion.
00:05:46.47\00:05:50.18
You can't have forced speech.
00:05:50.21\00:05:51.81
And by forcing this business
to do wedding invitations
00:05:51.85\00:05:57.09
for a same-sex couple,
00:05:57.12\00:05:59.15
you're forcing them to
participate in their wedding
00:05:59.19\00:06:02.36
that they didn't believe
00:06:02.39\00:06:04.66
that they had
religious objections to.
00:06:04.69\00:06:07.26
And it was a four
to three decision.
00:06:07.30\00:06:10.70
I've learned early on,
00:06:10.73\00:06:12.07
anytime when there's
that much dissension,
00:06:12.10\00:06:13.64
there's a lot
of room for debate.
00:06:13.67\00:06:15.50
But tell me, just
not as a legal matter
00:06:15.54\00:06:17.91
but as a societal matter,
00:06:17.94\00:06:20.34
things like
weddings and funerals
00:06:20.38\00:06:22.74
are very personal
and emotional times.
00:06:22.78\00:06:26.65
You go with someone simpatico.
00:06:26.68\00:06:30.62
You go with someone
that is willing to do it.
00:06:30.65\00:06:34.02
More than willing. Yeah.
00:06:34.06\00:06:35.52
Someone that
you're comfortable with.
00:06:35.56\00:06:37.59
Someone that you're family with.
00:06:37.63\00:06:38.96
So it seems to
me, in the cake thing,
00:06:38.99\00:06:43.37
for example, I've
thought this through
00:06:43.40\00:06:45.13
but if they
turned up at my bakery
00:06:45.17\00:06:49.54
and they say, "We want you
to make a wedding cake for us,"
00:06:49.57\00:06:53.44
and I'm sure in those cases,
00:06:53.48\00:06:55.61
it was fairly obvious
that they were a gay couple
00:06:55.64\00:06:57.61
because not always obvious.
00:06:57.65\00:07:01.32
All you need to say
00:07:01.35\00:07:02.68
is "Thank you for
choosing my business.
00:07:02.72\00:07:04.52
I'm glad you came here.
00:07:04.55\00:07:07.36
You know, you may not know
that I'm a committed Christian
00:07:07.39\00:07:12.29
and you may not know
that, you know, in my holy book,
00:07:12.33\00:07:15.16
in the Bible, it
speaks of your lifestyle
00:07:15.20\00:07:17.77
and I can't, you
know, I'm not particularly
00:07:17.80\00:07:22.40
in favor of your lifestyle.
00:07:22.44\00:07:24.21
But if knowing that
you want to work with me,
00:07:24.24\00:07:27.34
I will do the best I can."
00:07:27.38\00:07:29.51
Yeah.
00:07:29.54\00:07:30.88
How has that sort of
attitude compromise your faith
00:07:30.91\00:07:34.22
or offended them,
but you've made it clear.
00:07:34.25\00:07:37.12
And in the real world,
after this testing time
00:07:37.15\00:07:39.59
'cause they're just provoking,
that anyone would think,
00:07:39.62\00:07:42.72
"Oh, this person is
not on my wavelength.
00:07:42.76\00:07:44.99
Thank you. I'll go away."
00:07:45.03\00:07:46.36
Yeah, go somewhere else.
00:07:46.39\00:07:47.73
Where they're really
going to get enthused
00:07:47.76\00:07:49.86
and Twitter around
what they want to do.
00:07:49.90\00:07:52.97
Yeah, and that's
a very good example
00:07:53.00\00:07:56.07
of the bakery of
Lincoln Steed to treat someone
00:07:56.10\00:07:59.81
who doesn't comport
with your religious standards
00:07:59.84\00:08:03.08
in your business,
that's a very Christian way
00:08:03.11\00:08:05.85
to treat them and
to still serve them.
00:08:05.88\00:08:08.28
I would hope so. Yeah.
00:08:08.32\00:08:10.05
But a Christian is
under no obligation
00:08:10.09\00:08:11.85
to submerge their view.
00:08:11.89\00:08:13.86
No.
00:08:13.89\00:08:15.22
And that's sort of
what's coming out of this.
00:08:15.26\00:08:16.59
Christians are getting the idea
that they're being silenced.
00:08:16.62\00:08:19.09
And if they speak
badly, they will be silenced
00:08:19.13\00:08:21.30
because it's
socially objectionable
00:08:21.33\00:08:23.70
to be hateful in your face
00:08:23.73\00:08:26.10
to someone that is
differing on any level.
00:08:26.13\00:08:29.07
Yeah, and that's
where I want to go on
00:08:29.10\00:08:30.44
and jump back to
the first amendment
00:08:30.47\00:08:31.81
that the timid
need to look away.
00:08:31.84\00:08:33.48
"I'm offended"
has become a byword
00:08:33.51\00:08:35.28
for "It's my whole world
and the world is all about me."
00:08:35.31\00:08:38.35
Yes.
00:08:38.38\00:08:39.71
And that's not a
healthy way to have society.
00:08:39.75\00:08:41.28
No.
00:08:41.32\00:08:42.65
It's not a way 'cause we...
00:08:42.68\00:08:44.02
I believe in a robust-free
marketplace of ideas.
00:08:44.05\00:08:46.25
And I have a sincere belief that
00:08:46.29\00:08:51.39
in the bakery of Lincoln Steed,
00:08:51.43\00:08:53.50
you're treating your
customers with Christian love.
00:08:53.53\00:08:57.70
And with good bread.
And with good bread, good.
00:08:57.73\00:08:59.20
I don't make cakes, but I...
00:08:59.23\00:09:01.10
Is it leavened or unleavened?
00:09:01.14\00:09:03.57
Well, leavened.
00:09:03.61\00:09:04.97
But one of our church
leaders, Colin Standish,
00:09:05.01\00:09:10.65
was a good friend
of mine, he's dead now,
00:09:10.68\00:09:12.91
when I was growing up.
00:09:12.95\00:09:14.28
Actually, I met
my wife through him.
00:09:14.32\00:09:16.35
And I made some bread
once to give to my intended
00:09:16.38\00:09:22.26
'cause I used to
like baking bread.
00:09:22.29\00:09:24.23
And I remember,
he looked at that.
00:09:24.26\00:09:25.59
And so the next thing I know,
00:09:25.63\00:09:26.96
Dr. Standish,
she's making bread.
00:09:27.00\00:09:28.56
And every now and
again, my wife reminds me,
00:09:28.60\00:09:30.33
"We got into bread
making competitions."
00:09:30.37\00:09:32.97
And some of it was good bread.
00:09:33.00\00:09:34.80
Yeah.
00:09:34.84\00:09:36.17
And to just to prove
my bona fides of bread,
00:09:36.20\00:09:37.54
I went to Latvia years ago,
00:09:37.57\00:09:38.91
just after the Soviets
left and gave them independence.
00:09:38.94\00:09:42.88
And their bread was so good
that the second visit I made,
00:09:42.91\00:09:46.08
I took an empty suitcase
and brought 60 loaves of bread.
00:09:46.11\00:09:49.98
Did you get a recipe
or talk to the baker?
00:09:50.02\00:09:51.35
Jesus did say, "Man
shall not live by bread alone."
00:09:51.39\00:09:54.59
Yeah.
00:09:54.62\00:09:55.96
But bread here now
is pretty good stuff.
00:09:55.99\00:09:57.86
Yeah. Pretty good stuff.
00:09:57.89\00:09:59.23
Yeah.
00:09:59.26\00:10:00.60
But yeah, it's a great shame,
I think, that the church is...
00:10:00.63\00:10:04.30
too many in the church
not acting truly as Christians
00:10:04.33\00:10:07.67
or people of faith
have sort of come bumping up
00:10:07.70\00:10:11.37
against this
new, not a new class,
00:10:11.41\00:10:15.14
but a newly
recognized class in our society.
00:10:15.18\00:10:17.85
And I think Christianity or
true Christianity is at risk
00:10:17.88\00:10:21.62
as well as an unfortunate
conflict that may not be.
00:10:21.65\00:10:27.29
It's a straw man conflict.
00:10:27.32\00:10:28.92
'Cause I've got two views.
00:10:28.96\00:10:30.29
See what you think of it.
00:10:30.33\00:10:31.66
First of all, I find no evidence
00:10:31.69\00:10:33.63
in the early Roman
Empire during the persecutions,
00:10:33.66\00:10:38.50
I guess, but particularly
00:10:38.53\00:10:40.24
after Constantine
had accepted them.
00:10:40.27\00:10:43.00
The Christians
as a societal group
00:10:43.04\00:10:47.71
sort of anathematized people
of immorality or whatever,
00:10:47.74\00:10:51.85
they're not going
to deal with them.
00:10:51.88\00:10:53.38
The success of
Christianity was because
00:10:53.42\00:10:56.18
they were willing to deal
with the pagans and ran stores.
00:10:56.22\00:10:59.95
And you can see it today.
00:10:59.99\00:11:01.92
In Islamic Egypt,
the cops run the store...
00:11:01.96\00:11:05.26
In fact Christians run...
00:11:05.29\00:11:06.63
They had to change
with the community.
00:11:06.66\00:11:09.43
But the only thing I
know from early Christianity,
00:11:09.46\00:11:12.03
if a soldier joined,
a Roman soldier joined,
00:11:12.07\00:11:14.87
they made him
leave the military.
00:11:18.17\00:11:19.84
Yeah.
00:11:19.87\00:11:21.21
So a few
things, Lincoln, on that
00:11:21.24\00:11:23.68
is that when the
Christian Church,
00:11:23.71\00:11:28.48
the early Christian Church,
00:11:28.52\00:11:29.85
in order to continue to
teach the ministry of Jesus
00:11:29.88\00:11:32.92
and spread the gospel,
00:11:32.95\00:11:34.76
you can't do
that when you're only
00:11:34.79\00:11:36.12
talking to your own team.
00:11:36.16\00:11:38.99
You're not going to get any more
00:11:39.03\00:11:40.40
people on your team
00:11:40.43\00:11:41.76
if you're only
talking to your team.
00:11:41.80\00:11:43.13
Right.
00:11:43.16\00:11:44.50
So it's a matter
of public relations,
00:11:44.53\00:11:45.87
how you would operate.
00:11:45.90\00:11:47.24
No, it's more than that.
00:11:47.27\00:11:48.60
What was the great commission
just before Jesus left?
00:11:48.64\00:11:49.97
Making disciples of all people.
00:11:50.01\00:11:51.34
Doing disciples of all people.
00:11:51.37\00:11:52.71
He's not saying, "Make
disciples of only people
00:11:52.74\00:11:54.08
just like you."
00:11:54.11\00:11:55.44
Right.
00:11:55.48\00:11:56.81
And those are important words.
00:11:56.85\00:11:58.18
Yeah.
00:11:58.21\00:11:59.55
So it's very unfortunate.
00:11:59.58\00:12:01.45
The other thing is
a tactical question
00:12:01.48\00:12:03.89
and I'm still amazed at this.
00:12:03.92\00:12:07.56
And I wrote a editorial
of Liberty on this once.
00:12:07.59\00:12:11.13
The dispute, growing dispute,
00:12:11.16\00:12:12.83
between people
of faith in the US,
00:12:12.86\00:12:15.10
particularly, and
the new gay rights
00:12:15.13\00:12:18.13
and gay movement and so on
00:12:18.17\00:12:19.97
obscures
something that I have heard
00:12:20.00\00:12:22.04
almost no discussion on
as a sociological matter
00:12:22.07\00:12:26.78
to empower bisexuality,
gays, and all the rest
00:12:26.81\00:12:32.11
is a social
experiment without equal.
00:12:32.15\00:12:35.18
It will have
immense ramifications
00:12:35.22\00:12:37.25
on medical care,
inheritance rights,
00:12:37.29\00:12:39.95
and all the rest, right?
00:12:39.99\00:12:41.32
Well, yes and no.
00:12:41.36\00:12:44.83
People are free to
make their own wills.
00:12:44.86\00:12:46.90
Well, I'm not questioning
whether they're free to do it,
00:12:46.93\00:12:48.53
but it has ramifications
00:12:48.56\00:12:50.40
for a cost of running
social services and so on.
00:12:50.43\00:12:54.54
That's just a statement.
00:12:54.57\00:12:55.90
I'm not wanting to dispute that.
00:12:55.94\00:12:57.31
Okay.
00:12:57.34\00:12:58.67
It could differ on a
degree, but it's huge.
00:12:58.71\00:13:02.18
And, so they could have
been a more active discussion
00:13:02.21\00:13:04.65
about what society had
to gain or lose from it.
00:13:04.68\00:13:07.72
But it jumped instantly
to a civil rights question.
00:13:07.75\00:13:11.59
And now it
shifted to a challenge
00:13:11.62\00:13:13.52
between their civil
rights and religious rights.
00:13:13.56\00:13:16.06
Yeah.
00:13:16.09\00:13:17.43
But for Christians to
object, the time to object
00:13:17.46\00:13:20.23
was when a society
that I don't think primarily
00:13:20.26\00:13:24.43
because of
Christian considerations
00:13:24.47\00:13:26.94
had societal mores
00:13:26.97\00:13:28.37
that didn't accept
this open behavior, right?
00:13:28.40\00:13:33.34
That was the
point that Christians
00:13:33.38\00:13:35.01
should have added their
voice to the public discussion
00:13:35.04\00:13:38.31
because they had a
view on the morality,
00:13:38.35\00:13:40.28
the acceptability of this.
00:13:40.32\00:13:41.72
Once it was declared legal.
00:13:41.75\00:13:44.02
And I remember the turning point
00:13:44.05\00:13:45.39
was Lawrence V Kansas,
00:13:45.42\00:13:47.56
and they got caught
00:13:47.59\00:13:48.92
between
privacy, defense privacy,
00:13:48.96\00:13:52.56
or allowing
this private behavior
00:13:52.59\00:13:55.06
behind this thing.
00:13:55.10\00:13:57.37
But once we cross that,
00:13:57.40\00:13:59.60
then I don't think Christians
or any religious group
00:13:59.63\00:14:02.60
have a license to
deny what the society
00:14:02.64\00:14:05.61
and the state through
its laws have put in place.
00:14:05.64\00:14:08.54
That's actually correct.
00:14:08.58\00:14:10.48
And they believe the church
was active in on that debate.
00:14:10.51\00:14:15.38
Yeah, there was some activity
but not to the level now.
00:14:15.42\00:14:18.35
But if it's a church
rule or a church ordinance,
00:14:18.39\00:14:21.22
the government doesn't
have anything to do with that.
00:14:21.26\00:14:23.79
And that's a matter
between you and your God.
00:14:23.83\00:14:25.66
Absolutely.
00:14:25.69\00:14:27.03
We need to take a break.
00:14:27.06\00:14:28.40
We'll be back shortly to
continue this discussion,
00:14:28.43\00:14:31.43
which I'm sure as you
can see already is topical.
00:14:31.47\00:14:34.10