Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190447B
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00:04 Welcome back to the Liberty Insider.
00:05 Before the break, 00:07 we were on another tangent 00:09 but I want to start off again with my guest, 00:13 Charles Steinberg. 00:17 Let's talk about religious conflict, 00:19 which is really what we were talking about before the break. 00:21 Yes. 00:22 But that was very specific within the church. 00:25 But conflict between faiths, 00:29 so between large faith groups is not new at all, is it? 00:32 No, I mean, even going back in time to the year 1054, 00:38 the Great Schism that happened when the Orthodox Church 00:42 split from the Holy Roman Catholic Church. 00:45 They split over issues that when something's 00:49 at the core of your belief, 00:52 whether or not you should have leavened bread 00:54 or matzah for the communion, or leavened bread, 00:58 which is the bread with the yeast in it. 00:59 That doesn't sound so big. 01:01 But you're going to get to the really big stuff. 01:02 Yeah, I know. We'll get to big stuff later. 01:03 But anyway, the nature of the Holy Spirit 01:07 and then, of course, the nature, 01:09 where you should have the Holy CB. 01:11 Should the Holy CB in Rome 01:13 with its jurisdiction worldwide? 01:17 Or should you have the Holy CB based in Constantinople? 01:21 And when that Schism began, Constantinople 01:24 was the new headquarters for the emperor. 01:26 Yes. 01:28 So today, 01:30 the Roman Catholic Church has big claims. 01:33 But when you look back to the time of the Schism, 01:35 it was a bit uppity for the Bishop of Rome. 01:39 Yesterday's city, 01:41 Rome was a backwater largely at that point, 01:44 but he within the Christian Church 01:45 was claiming that he was the dominant one 01:47 and so that was the split. 01:49 Yeah. 01:50 So he was sort of shacked off by Constantinople. 01:53 And part of that conflict, which continues to this day 01:57 was one of the Crusades 01:59 was diverted by the Bishop of Rome 02:01 conspiring with the Christian Crusaders. 02:05 He says, "Before you go to liberate Jerusalem, 02:09 you know, liberate Constantinople." 02:11 Yeah. 02:13 So dissect that. 02:14 Yeah, well, those are areas 02:16 what we call as a zero-sum game. 02:17 Yeah. 02:19 If we're arguing over $1 02:23 and you start out with 50 pennies 02:25 and I start out with 50 pennies, 02:27 anytime I win, I take away from you, 02:29 and anytime that I lose, it goes to your gain. 02:33 That's what we call an entrenched position 02:35 in a zero-sum game. 02:37 And a lot of times, there are reasons to have that, 02:41 like if you're going to have to sacrifice 02:43 your religious belief, 02:45 you know, you want to think long and hard about that 02:50 before you act on it. 02:51 But in these great actions of history, 02:54 I think of religious conflict going back to the Bible times. 02:57 I think of great religious conflict going back 03:01 to what I call the first law of self-defense 03:04 that was enacted in the story of Esther. 03:06 And even it's familiar with the story. 03:08 Back then, they said, 03:09 "Let's kill the Jews and plunder all their wealth," 03:13 and the laws of the Medes and Persians 03:14 couldn't be changed. 03:16 And so Esther and Mordecai then pleaded to King Xerxes, 03:21 you know, since the laws of the Medes and Persians 03:23 can't be changed, you can make a new law, 03:24 and that new law says the Jews can use self-defense. 03:27 Yeah, they can defend themselves. 03:28 They can defend themselves. It's an amazing thing. 03:30 Yeah. 03:31 And none of them were killed or plundered that day. 03:34 And although when you go on to continue reading 03:36 the Bible account of Esther, 03:39 it does look like the Jews actually plundered the people 03:42 that had, have baptized them. 03:43 Yes. 03:45 They got more than their money's worth. 03:46 But you know, that brings up another subject. 03:47 I don't know if you want to go here yet or not, 03:49 but women leaders in the Bible. 03:52 Why do men have such a problem? 03:54 You're trying to introduce the women's lib movement 03:56 before the '60s? 03:57 Yeah. 03:59 Well, you know, it's clear that there are different gifts 04:02 that men and women have. 04:04 But it's also very clear in the Bible 04:06 that God chose certain women to be strong leaders. 04:09 Yeah. 04:10 I'm just bringing that up there. 04:11 Although the Bible does answer that. 04:13 It says when the men are not 04:16 assuming their correct leadership role, 04:18 it says, women will rule over you. 04:20 Yes. 04:21 And that's I don't think 04:23 is taking it in my mind the best way. 04:25 It's not put down on women. 04:27 But women make things work. 04:29 And when the men have let down their responsibility, 04:32 women can fill the gap easily. 04:34 Yeah. And so that does happen. 04:36 And I think of the churches that I've been to, 04:39 so much work actually gets done by women in the church. 04:43 Well, you know, you're getting on another thing. 04:45 Sorry about that. 04:46 It's a matter of biological makeup, 04:48 I think, or maybe of roles in the family and that, 04:51 but women tend to be more spiritually inclined. 04:53 Yeah. 04:54 I wanted to switch gears back to the history. 04:56 Yes, that's where I wanted to take it. 04:58 So going back to history, 05:01 I think of one of the great legal documents 05:03 that we have is the Magna Carta 05:06 that has given us so many rights. 05:08 Sort of the seminal legal document. 05:11 It's a seminal legal document. 05:12 I noticed after 9/11 in the US. 05:15 The US at that time of Antonin Scalia 05:17 who would mock the idea of English common law 05:21 or anything non-American. 05:22 "We don't care about that," he would say. 05:23 Yeah, history began in 1783. Right. 05:26 In actuality, a lot of the lawyers are, 05:28 the talking head lawyers, 05:31 critiquing things that followed 9/11 were constantly 05:35 recounting the value of Magna Carta 05:37 and protection against search and seizure 05:40 and imprisonment and all that. 05:41 And a jury of your peers. 05:43 You could have 25 barons, 05:45 you could have 14 barons hearing your court case, 05:48 instead of people just picked by the king. 05:50 And you know, the interesting thing 05:52 about the issue on Magna Carta was King John, 05:56 he'd been fighting these wars on foreign lands 05:59 and all sorts of things 06:01 and taxing the people very heavily. 06:04 And so the nobles that had it up to here, 06:06 and they said, "We want you to sign this document." 06:09 And you know, he was intending to just rip it up 06:11 and ignore it after he signed it. 06:13 But what one of the noble leaders had done, 06:16 Robert Fitzwater, 06:17 he had actually gotten control of London. 06:21 And when you think of the King of England, 06:25 his base is in the prime city, London. 06:28 And so for you to have basically captured 06:32 the king's main city, he had incentive to negotiate. 06:35 So he negotiated... 06:36 Oh, they had him where they wanted him 06:38 at that particular moment. 06:39 They did. Yeah. 06:41 A few years ago on a trip to England, 06:43 and I'm trying to remember which... 06:45 Was it Winchester? 06:47 But anyhow, one of the cathedrals, 06:48 we discovered they had one of, I think, 06:50 only three original copies of the Magna Carta. 06:55 It was very interesting to see that actual document. 06:58 So we're going far afield here, 07:00 but I was in Simi Valley 07:03 and I was at the presidential library 07:06 of Ronald Reagan. 07:08 And they had one of those 07:09 three copies of Magna Carta on loan 07:11 when I happened to go there. 07:14 And I was like, 07:15 'cause as a lawyer, I'm really excited. 07:17 "Oh, this is Magna Carta. 07:18 This is the seminal document that gave us rights." 07:21 And as I'm leaning over the case, 07:24 I actually bump into it, I'm looking at it that close 07:27 that my breath is there and the docent, 07:30 he says, "Sir, the condition of this display 07:34 is being monitored live in London via Internet. 07:38 You need to back off from the display, please." 07:41 But I was like, "Oh, this is exciting," you know? 07:42 But you know, 07:44 Magna Carta doesn't give us our rights either. 07:47 They're given to us by God. 07:49 Well, of course, the US... 07:55 It's the Declaration of Independence, 07:57 not the constitution. 07:58 Yeah. 07:59 The Declaration of Independence acknowledges that, 08:01 which I think is even though that wasn't... 08:03 I mean, it was accepted 08:05 by the Continental Congress head woman, 08:07 but it wasn't written by them. 08:09 So it's really narrowly coming from probably Jefferson, 08:12 but still it's now joined to the constitutional makeup, 08:17 and it's a wonderful way of looking at it. 08:18 One of the great things about the United States foundings, 08:21 the different foundings over different periods 08:23 is I love our constitutional founding, 08:24 where it says, "There shall be no 08:26 religious test for public office." 08:27 Yeah. 08:29 And it also says that there's a... 08:31 I read into it, 08:32 and Jefferson's letter to the Dan Barry 08:35 Church Association 08:37 says there'll be a separation of church and state. 08:40 And you know, you can attack that all you want, 08:43 but when you look at the result, 08:44 the end game there is religious wars 08:46 and religious persecution backed by the state. 08:49 And I'm going to segue here a little bit, 08:50 Lincoln, into what do you think 08:53 about this issue with Brexit and Boris? 08:57 You're going to interview me on my...? 08:58 No, I'm just asking. 08:59 I'm not going to interview on your own show. 09:01 I'd like to talk about that on another program. 09:02 Another program? Okay. 09:04 The numbers are ticking down. 09:06 We only have a few minutes left in this program. 09:08 Okay. 09:09 But, you know, let's just enumerate 09:10 some of the other religious divides, 09:16 the Islamic community, 09:20 largely between Sunni and Shia, 09:23 and the difference between them was always nothing. 09:26 So what's the difference between them? 09:28 I'll tell you, it's not even really theological. 09:30 When Muhammad died, there was a succession problem, 09:33 who would be the next caliph. 09:35 He chose his friend Abu Bakr to become the next caliph. 09:40 There was a faction that wanted Muhammad's son-in-law, 09:44 Ali, to take it up. 09:47 And 'cause Ali is the saint basically of the Shiites, 09:53 and they lost out. 09:55 He died, was killed. 09:57 And so this dispute, it's only of a succession. 10:00 It's not a deeply theological thing at all, 10:02 but people are killed over this today. 10:04 You take something that rooted 10:07 and you teach it to generation after generation, 10:12 it becomes one of your core beliefs 10:13 and you're willing to act on that. 10:15 Yeah. 10:16 And these other social dynamics 10:18 that kick in that make people act 10:21 at times violently on these things. 10:23 And you know, within all belief systems, 10:25 there's these schisms. 10:27 And I think, it's probably human nature 10:28 dispute over things. 10:30 Yeah. There's no end of argument. 10:32 But again, what do you think we can do to ameliorate 10:37 or moderate these things? 10:38 So to moderate these things, again, 10:40 one of the things you do is basically 10:42 check yourself to see 10:44 where your passions are coming from. 10:45 And if your passions are raising you up 10:47 to do something negative 10:49 or violent against somebody else 10:51 and interfere with their civil rights, 10:53 you better check that at the door. 10:57 The letters of the Apostle Paul 10:58 are certainly dominant in the New Testament 11:02 and arguably they existed as written material 11:05 before the gospels. 11:07 One element of them that has always resonated with me 11:10 is Paul's continued complaint 11:13 that he was in competition with other teachers 11:15 and they were the false teachers. 11:16 He was the correct one. 11:18 It's very clear there was great dispute 11:20 in the early Christian Church. 11:22 Then at the Jerusalem Council, 11:25 he came head to head with Peter, 11:27 and as Paul with a little self-promotion says, 11:31 "You know, and I told him off, I set him straight." 11:35 Discounting perhaps Paul's own myopic viewpoint, 11:39 there's no question that conflict existed 11:42 but it clearly was settled 11:44 in the spirit of Christian charity 11:47 that so clearly followed Pentecost, 11:51 brother with brother, sister with sister, 11:53 and all under the Spirit of God working toward harmony 11:57 in the Christian community. 12:01 For Liberty Insider, this is Lincoln Steed. |
Revised 2019-11-14