Participants:
Series Code: LI
Program Code: LI190447A
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00:27 Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
00:29 This is a program designed to bring you up-to-date news, 00:32 information, and insights 00:35 into religious liberty in the US often, 00:38 but around the world as well. 00:40 My name is Lincoln Steed, editor of Liberty magazine, 00:43 and my guest on this program. 00:45 Welcome, Charles. 00:46 Charles Steinberg. Thank you, Lincoln. 00:48 Attorney and Vice President 00:49 for the Northwest Religious Liberty Association. 00:54 Many things that you and I can talk about, 00:56 but let's really hit 00:58 an oddball path of religious liberty. 01:01 It doesn't compute 01:02 in many ways for a lawyer at least. 01:06 The United States is a very free country. 01:08 I like to think Australia where I come from. 01:11 Then on the other side, there's countries 01:13 perhaps like Saudi Arabia, they're comfortable, 01:16 but you wouldn't say it's got religious freedom. 01:20 So there's a national component and the laws that apply there. 01:23 But what about within a belief system? 01:28 People join a belief system 01:31 and religion is a contentious topic. 01:35 And if you study church history, 01:37 Christian history, I'm very familiar with, 01:40 disputes all along the way, 01:42 and occasionally cries of heresy 01:45 and in the Dark Ages, 01:47 you know, people were brutally killed 01:50 because they differed 01:51 from the prevailing religious viewpoint, 01:53 not the state necessarily, 01:55 the church itself going after heretics. 01:58 But we're not in that era in the west anymore, 02:00 but we are more and more in the era of important topics, 02:04 whether it's some things like women's ordination 02:06 or whether the priests should marry 02:09 and these sort of things. 02:10 And there's a lot of vehemence shared. 02:15 And then often people either leave 02:18 which is their right or other times, 02:21 they choose to stay and they marginalized, 02:23 they're mistreated, they're... 02:26 Excommunicated. 02:28 Yeah, that's just a whole variety. 02:30 How do we relate to that? 02:31 I get letters from people 02:33 wanting Liberty magazine 02:35 to sort of take the side in a dispute. 02:38 Yeah. And there's not much I can say. 02:40 I know the legal bottom line. Yeah. 02:42 That it's a free association, you can go, 02:45 no one can force you to do anything. 02:46 But if you're a true believer, 02:48 that's sort of like Adam and Eve 02:50 going out of the Garden of Eden. 02:51 That's the expulsion, 02:54 you know, with no equal. 02:56 There's several different issues 02:58 right off the top. 02:59 One of the first issues, 03:01 and you've already talked about it 03:02 little bit the freedom of association. 03:04 In the United States 03:05 you have the freedom to associate with a group 03:06 or not associate with a group. 03:08 That's up to you. 03:09 And courts aren't gonna get involved in that 03:12 unless it involves things like violence, 03:15 imminent bodily harm... 03:16 Let me... 03:18 I'm trying to throw you off. Yeah. 03:20 But there's a case on Christian clubs 03:25 on college campuses at one point as I remember. 03:30 The government, I'm trying to remember 03:31 it was federal or state, 03:33 but they were actually requiring the club 03:35 to open its membership to anyone, even atheists. 03:39 I believe so under the antidiscrimination clauses. 03:42 And that's required when you accept funds from... 03:46 Yes, you're right. That was the key. 03:47 When you accept funds... 03:49 When you take money, you've opened yourself up. 03:50 When you take money, it's a good thing 03:51 because everyone can use a little bit of money. 03:53 But when you take money from Washington DC, 03:56 usually it has a string or a chain that says 03:58 you must behave a certain way. 04:00 Yeah. 04:01 And some people like that as a golden chain, 04:03 and other people when they want to change their beliefs 04:06 or they want to ascribe to belief, 04:08 but they'll forget they signed this contract 04:09 to get that money. 04:11 And it's an interesting issue 04:13 but a lot of times in church disputes 04:16 one of the things that I always... 04:18 In 24 years of being a lawyer now, 04:21 it's interesting to me to see people, 04:24 they'll want to all of a sudden put God on their side. 04:28 And they'll say, well, 04:29 I'm gonna use a hypothetical here. 04:31 "Lincoln, you've done this, this, and this to me, 04:33 you've said this, 04:34 and then even God saw you do all that. 04:36 Therefore, you need to be church disciplined 04:39 or you need to be disfellowshipped, 04:41 and how could you still be a Christian?" 04:42 And all these other things. But you know what? 04:45 Once I just make the accusation that you are anti God, like, 04:50 I'm putting myself in a judgment seat. 04:52 I'm now saying what God is, 04:54 and it's kind of like some people will see... 04:56 Most of my arguments with my wife come down to that. 04:59 And I've told her a couple of times 'cause she says, 05:02 "God, will punish you for your attitude on this." 05:05 And I say, "I don't like your God." 05:09 Yeah. It is the truth. 05:10 But this is the dynamic, I've recognized. 05:12 It's true. 05:13 It's easy, especially, 05:15 within a church environment 05:16 to appropriate God on your side. 05:18 You know, 05:19 there's that classic statement of Abraham Lincoln 05:22 that both sides of the Civil War prayed to God, 05:24 but He was on one of the side. 05:25 And, you know, the founding of the United States, 05:28 the Declaration of Independence. 05:30 We are endowed from the inalienable rights 05:34 by God to life, 05:37 liberty in the pursuit of freedom, 05:38 pursuit of happiness. 05:40 And, you know, we... 05:41 Now property as the original statement said. 05:43 Yeah, Thomas Jefferson in the court of world opinion 05:48 shows God is on our side 05:50 away from the tyranny of King George, 05:53 but whether it's somebody who's feeling 05:56 put under the thumb of either a church board 05:59 or church board of elders or worse... 06:03 The Bible is very, very masterful in this. 06:07 And we're going a long ways away from religious liberty 06:09 in my area of expertise here. 06:11 But there's a book... 06:12 But it's connected. It's all very connected. 06:14 This is a big concern 06:15 of many people of faith, I know. 06:17 It's all very connected. 06:18 There's a book, and the book is in the Book of Matthew. 06:21 And Matthew 18 says, 06:23 "If you have a disagreement with a brother, 06:25 go talk to him just you and him alone. 06:29 And then you might have won a brother over." 06:31 But then if he still has got a stiff neck, 06:33 and we humans, we can be a troubled lot. 06:35 Yeah. 06:36 Then you bring another person along to do that. 06:39 And then if after you and a witness 06:42 go along to that person, 06:44 then is when you tell it to the church. 06:47 Now these days we have these electronic devices, 06:50 and social media, and texting, 06:53 and emailing, and things like that. 06:55 Those have replaced face-to-face communication. 06:59 And there are things that I might tell you 07:01 in a text message or a snappy chat 07:03 or social media thing 07:06 that I would never tell it to your face. 07:08 And that is a dumbing down 07:11 of a part what a human being is in my opinion. 07:15 It's created a new social instability, isn't it? 07:17 I don't know if it's a new social instability, 07:19 I wouldn't go that far yet. 07:21 I would say it's created 07:22 a new mechanism of way to do things. 07:24 As a lawyer, you know, 07:25 I've subpoenaed and obtain text messages from people, 07:28 and I've had them read them back in court, 07:30 and they are crying and the judge is like, 07:32 "Are you really gonna have that person continue 07:34 to read those text messages, Mr. Steinberg?" 07:35 "Well, now that I know that you know 07:39 what we're talking about judge, 07:40 I don't need to keep on pestering this witness. 07:43 And so one of the things I tried to do is, you know, 07:46 don't put something in a text message or an email, 07:48 you don't want read back in front of a judge. 07:50 I go on that theory. Yeah. 07:52 Well, not so much the judge, 07:53 but I figure it has to be something 07:55 that many people can see 07:57 and you could still live with it. 07:59 But how many church disputes would stop 08:02 if someone would just use Matthew 18? 08:05 You know, it kind of reminds me 08:07 and you're gonna think I'm crazy. 08:09 But it reminds me of a little bit of the tension 08:11 between Israel and Egypt, 08:13 over the Sinai Peninsula 08:15 and the bargaining over the Sinai Peninsula. 08:18 Israel needed the Sinai desert as a buffer zone, 08:21 so they could make sure that they're not gonna get attacked 08:23 from the Sinai desert, Egypt, 08:26 even though they lost it in a war by right of conquest. 08:30 They'd lost that territory in a war to Israel. 08:33 They need it 08:34 because that's been their historical possession forever. 08:36 It's like an honor, a mark of honor. 08:38 They had to have that land. 08:39 And through what we call shuttle diplomacy 08:41 with Henry Kissinger. 08:44 "Okay, Israel, can you give the land back to Egypt?" 08:48 And Israel's like, "Yeah, 08:50 if we get to have early advanced warning systems 08:52 of an upcoming invasion." 08:54 And that's what Anwar Sadat and Menachem Begin 08:58 were able to come to this huge, dramatic peace. 09:01 Yeah. 09:03 And it took another person in the room. 09:06 So there's a lot to be said and a lot of church... 09:11 Church and belief is such a personal thing 09:13 to a person in their heart 09:15 and that's where you're gonna get passion 09:17 and people are gonna wanna have 09:19 even the editor of Liberty magazine 09:20 choose a side, 09:22 you need to decide this, you are my judge. 09:23 Yeah. 09:25 And, you know, we all answer to one judge. 09:27 And you, you know... 09:28 You're giving me ammunition on how I deal with the next one. 09:31 Well, anyway we all make judgments every day. 09:37 We make thousands of judgments a day in split seconds. 09:40 And some of you... 09:42 Well, you know, I'm an attorney, 09:43 part of my law practice is doing estate planning. 09:45 And I'm not making a plug here 09:48 for doing estate planning at all, but I was doing... 09:51 Is there 800 number we can put out? 09:54 I was doing a will 09:55 for an elderly gentleman on hospice. 09:58 He was given eight days to live, 09:59 and he wanted to put his affairs in order. 10:02 And there's a test for mental competency 10:04 to make a will. 10:05 And I walked him through that he was surprised 10:07 that I was walking him through a test on mental competency 10:09 to make a will. 10:10 But at the end of that, you know what he said to me? 10:13 He was, "You know, Mr. Steinberg, 10:14 I'm glad that you have me take that test 10:16 to make will, but the only test 10:17 that I wanna be sure I past 10:19 is when I wake up did I know Jesus?" 10:22 Yeah. And when he told me that... 10:24 Now that rule would solve all of these inside church disputes 10:27 if they had the right spiritual commitment. 10:32 For some people, though, 10:33 when they're that passionate about an issue. 10:35 I learned from, 10:38 I can't remember which gentleman shared with me, 10:40 when someone has a lot of passion for an issue. 10:44 You can tap into that energy and actually, forgive me Lord, 10:48 actually get into the mind to 10:49 have there be some rationality about it. 10:52 And sometimes you can actually turn a person toward that. 10:56 Like for instance, 10:58 some people don't like Jehovah's Witnesses 10:59 going door to door. 11:01 They're known for that. 11:02 But they're out there doing their belief, and they've got 11:05 a constitutionally protected right to do that. 11:07 Yeah. 11:08 But what do you do with that person? 11:10 Do you try and share the love of God with them? 11:13 Or do you just laugh about it and make jokes about it? 11:15 Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean... 11:17 No, you should treat them as Christ witness, 11:20 it's an easy thing to figure out. 11:22 And we humans were great about rules. 11:24 We have a whole church manual. We have a whole policy manual. 11:27 And when someone is in dispute, 11:30 how often is it that you don't take the steps 11:32 to do Matthew 18. 11:33 And it's easier to throw the baby out 11:35 with the bathwater. 11:36 But it's just one of the things that I like harping back on. 11:40 Now let's get you onto... 11:42 I think you're right on the money there. 11:44 But I haven't lately heard any legal developments on this, 11:49 but I know this mean moves 11:51 toward holding the church culpable 11:55 for promises and expectations that members might have had. 11:58 Yes. 11:59 So like let's say, for example, 12:02 member has an expectation 12:04 of certain programs being offered, 12:07 and the church changes their mind 12:10 or change in leadership 12:11 and they don't wanna do that anymore. 12:12 You know what, 12:14 court's not gonna get involved in that at all. 12:15 Not yet, but it was tied to another funds 12:20 that they had contributed, and they... 12:22 In other words, there was an essence, 12:24 I don't remember the word, 12:26 but in essence a breach of a verbal contract. 12:29 Breach of trust. Yes. 12:30 So on the areas of breach of trust, 12:32 like a donor's intent of like, 12:35 "I will give the church of Lincoln Steed $5 million 12:39 to erect a statue to religious liberty 12:41 in Town Square." 12:42 Thank you. 12:43 Sounds like a good one. 12:46 Anyway... I like that. 12:49 And then instead, 12:52 you squander the money and go to Saudi Arabia, 12:56 get a harem, I don't know. 12:58 Well, now you're really entering 12:59 into dangerous territory. 13:01 But anyway, 13:02 it's an obvious breach of trust. 13:05 It's an obvious breach of the gift. 13:07 I believe a court will step in that case, 13:09 but a court won't go 13:10 into adjudicate different issues of church belief. 13:14 Well, that's good. 13:16 So, yes, I think 13:17 you've settled it very nicely in half a program 13:20 so we might have to go off in another direction. 13:22 You know... 13:23 But this is a very serious issue, 13:26 not necessarily in the classic religious liberty sense. 13:30 And earlier, you touched on something 13:33 that I know from Australia 13:36 was part of a dynamic, I was down in Australia, 13:39 decades ago now working for a while in our church work, 13:44 and there was a huge dispute within the church. 13:46 And part of it ended up in court, 13:49 two parties, not just two individuals, 13:51 two parties, 13:53 took the issue to court and the judge quoted the Bible, 13:57 and he said, "It's a disgrace that you come before me." 14:00 He says, "I'm dismissing this case. 14:01 You go and settle this privately." 14:03 Yes, exactly. 14:04 And, you know, it does say in the Bible, 14:06 you know, "Why are you going 14:08 in front of what they call the heathen court system?" 14:10 It can be very scary to be a witness 14:14 or even a party in a civil court matter. 14:17 Good time to take a break. 14:19 So stay with us, 14:20 and we'll be back shortly to continue this discussion. |
Revised 2019-11-14