Welcome to the Liberty Insider.
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This is a program designed
to bring you up-to-date news,
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information, and insights
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into religious
liberty in the US often,
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but around the world as well.
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My name is Lincoln Steed,
editor of Liberty magazine,
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and my guest on this program.
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Welcome, Charles.
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Charles Steinberg.
Thank you, Lincoln.
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Attorney and Vice President
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for the Northwest
Religious Liberty Association.
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Many things that you
and I can talk about,
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but let's really hit
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an oddball path
of religious liberty.
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It doesn't compute
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in many ways for
a lawyer at least.
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The United States
is a very free country.
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I like to think
Australia where I come from.
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Then on the other
side, there's countries
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perhaps like Saudi
Arabia, they're comfortable,
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but you wouldn't say
it's got religious freedom.
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So there's a national component
and the laws that apply there.
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But what about
within a belief system?
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People join a belief system
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and religion is a
contentious topic.
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And if you study church history,
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Christian history,
I'm very familiar with,
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disputes all along the way,
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and occasionally cries of heresy
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and in the Dark Ages,
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you know, people
were brutally killed
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because they differed
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from the prevailing
religious viewpoint,
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not the state necessarily,
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the church itself
going after heretics.
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But we're not in that
era in the west anymore,
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but we are more and more in
the era of important topics,
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whether it's some
things like women's ordination
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or whether the
priests should marry
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and these sort of things.
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And there's a lot
of vehemence shared.
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And then often
people either leave
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which is their
right or other times,
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they choose to stay
and they marginalized,
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they're mistreated, they're...
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Excommunicated.
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Yeah, that's
just a whole variety.
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How do we relate to that?
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I get letters from people
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wanting Liberty magazine
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to sort of take
the side in a dispute.
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Yeah. And there's
not much I can say.
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I know the legal
bottom line. Yeah.
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That it's a free
association, you can go,
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no one can force
you to do anything.
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But if you're a true believer,
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that's sort of like Adam and Eve
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going out of the Garden of Eden.
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That's the expulsion,
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you know, with no equal.
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There's several different issues
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right off the top.
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One of the first issues,
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and you've
already talked about it
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little bit the
freedom of association.
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In the United States
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you have the freedom
to associate with a group
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or not associate with a group.
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That's up to you.
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And courts aren't
gonna get involved in that
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unless it involves
things like violence,
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imminent bodily harm...
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Let me...
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I'm trying to
throw you off. Yeah.
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But there's a
case on Christian clubs
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on college campuses at
one point as I remember.
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The government,
I'm trying to remember
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it was federal or state,
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but they were
actually requiring the club
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to open its membership
to anyone, even atheists.
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I believe so under the
antidiscrimination clauses.
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And that's required
when you accept funds from...
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Yes, you're
right. That was the key.
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When you accept funds...
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When you take money,
you've opened yourself up.
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When you take
money, it's a good thing
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because everyone can
use a little bit of money.
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But when you take
money from Washington DC,
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usually it has a
string or a chain that says
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you must behave a certain way.
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Yeah.
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And some people like
that as a golden chain,
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and other people when they
want to change their beliefs
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or they want to
ascribe to belief,
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but they'll forget
they signed this contract
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to get that money.
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And it's an interesting issue
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but a lot of
times in church disputes
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one of the
things that I always...
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In 24 years of
being a lawyer now,
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it's interesting
to me to see people,
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they'll want to all of a
sudden put God on their side.
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And they'll say, well,
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I'm gonna use a
hypothetical here.
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"Lincoln, you've done
this, this, and this to me,
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you've said this,
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and then even God
saw you do all that.
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Therefore, you need
to be church disciplined
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or you need to
be disfellowshipped,
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and how could you
still be a Christian?"
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And all these other
things. But you know what?
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Once I just make the accusation
that you are anti God, like,
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I'm putting myself
in a judgment seat.
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I'm now saying what God is,
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and it's kind of like
some people will see...
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Most of my arguments with
my wife come down to that.
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And I've told her a
couple of times 'cause she says,
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"God, will punish you
for your attitude on this."
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And I say, "I
don't like your God."
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Yeah. It is the truth.
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But this is the
dynamic, I've recognized.
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It's true.
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It's easy, especially,
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within a church environment
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to appropriate God on your side.
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You know,
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there's that classic
statement of Abraham Lincoln
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that both sides of the
Civil War prayed to God,
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but He was on one of the side.
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And, you know, the
founding of the United States,
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the Declaration of Independence.
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We are endowed from
the inalienable rights
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by God to life,
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liberty in the
pursuit of freedom,
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pursuit of happiness.
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And, you know, we...
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Now property as the
original statement said.
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Yeah, Thomas Jefferson in
the court of world opinion
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shows God is on our side
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away from the
tyranny of King George,
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but whether it's
somebody who's feeling
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put under the thumb
of either a church board
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or church board
of elders or worse...
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The Bible is very,
very masterful in this.
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And we're going a long
ways away from religious liberty
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in my area of expertise here.
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But there's a book...
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But it's connected.
It's all very connected.
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This is a big concern
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of many people of faith, I know.
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It's all very connected.
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There's a book, and the
book is in the Book of Matthew.
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And Matthew 18 says,
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"If you have a
disagreement with a brother,
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go talk to him
just you and him alone.
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And then you might
have won a brother over."
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But then if he still
has got a stiff neck,
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and we humans, we
can be a troubled lot.
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Yeah.
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Then you bring another
person along to do that.
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And then if
after you and a witness
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go along to that person,
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then is when you
tell it to the church.
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Now these days we have
these electronic devices,
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and social media, and texting,
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and emailing,
and things like that.
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Those have replaced
face-to-face communication.
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And there are things
that I might tell you
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in a text
message or a snappy chat
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or social media thing
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that I would never
tell it to your face.
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And that is a dumbing down
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of a part what a human
being is in my opinion.
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It's created a new
social instability, isn't it?
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I don't know if it's a
new social instability,
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I wouldn't go that far yet.
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I would say it's created
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a new mechanism
of way to do things.
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As a lawyer, you know,
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I've subpoenaed and obtain
text messages from people,
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and I've had them
read them back in court,
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and they are crying
and the judge is like,
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"Are you really gonna
have that person continue
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to read those text
messages, Mr. Steinberg?"
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"Well, now that I
know that you know
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what we're talking about judge,
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I don't need to keep
on pestering this witness.
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And so one of the things
I tried to do is, you know,
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don't put something in a
text message or an email,
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you don't want read
back in front of a judge.
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I go on that theory. Yeah.
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Well, not so much the judge,
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but I figure it
has to be something
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that many people can see
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and you could
still live with it.
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But how many
church disputes would stop
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if someone would
just use Matthew 18?
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You know, it kind of reminds me
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and you're
gonna think I'm crazy.
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But it reminds me of a
little bit of the tension
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between Israel and Egypt,
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over the Sinai Peninsula
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and the bargaining
over the Sinai Peninsula.
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Israel needed the Sinai
desert as a buffer zone,
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so they could make sure that
they're not gonna get attacked
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from the Sinai desert, Egypt,
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even though they lost it
in a war by right of conquest.
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They'd lost that
territory in a war to Israel.
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They need it
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because that's been their
historical possession forever.
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It's like an
honor, a mark of honor.
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They had to have that land.
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And through what we
call shuttle diplomacy
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with Henry Kissinger.
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"Okay, Israel, can you
give the land back to Egypt?"
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And Israel's like, "Yeah,
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if we get to have early
advanced warning systems
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of an upcoming invasion."
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And that's what Anwar
Sadat and Menachem Begin
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were able to come to
this huge, dramatic peace.
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Yeah.
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And it took
another person in the room.
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So there's a lot to be
said and a lot of church...
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Church and belief is
such a personal thing
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to a person in their heart
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and that's where
you're gonna get passion
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and people are gonna wanna have
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even the editor
of Liberty magazine
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choose a side,
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you need to decide
this, you are my judge.
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Yeah.
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And, you know, we
all answer to one judge.
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And you, you know...
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You're giving me ammunition
on how I deal with the next one.
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Well, anyway we all
make judgments every day.
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We make thousands of judgments
a day in split seconds.
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And some of you...
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Well, you know, I'm an attorney,
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part of my law practice
is doing estate planning.
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And I'm not making a plug here
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for doing estate planning
at all, but I was doing...
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Is there 800
number we can put out?
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I was doing a will
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for an elderly
gentleman on hospice.
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He was given eight days to live,
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and he wanted to put
his affairs in order.
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And there's a test
for mental competency
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to make a will.
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And I walked him
through that he was surprised
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that I was walking him through
a test on mental competency
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to make a will.
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But at the end of that,
you know what he said to me?
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He was, "You
know, Mr. Steinberg,
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I'm glad that you
have me take that test
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to make will, but the only test
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that I wanna be sure I past
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is when I wake up
did I know Jesus?"
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Yeah. And when
he told me that...
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Now that rule would solve all
of these inside church disputes
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if they had the
right spiritual commitment.
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For some people, though,
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when they're that
passionate about an issue.
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I learned from,
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I can't remember which
gentleman shared with me,
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when someone has a lot
of passion for an issue.
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You can tap into that energy
and actually, forgive me Lord,
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actually get into the mind to
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have there be some
rationality about it.
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And sometimes you can actually
turn a person toward that.
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Like for instance,
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some people don't
like Jehovah's Witnesses
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going door to door.
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They're known for that.
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But they're out there doing
their belief, and they've got
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a constitutionally
protected right to do that.
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Yeah.
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But what do you
do with that person?
00:11:08.46\00:11:10.73
Do you try and share
the love of God with them?
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Or do you just laugh about
it and make jokes about it?
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Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean...
00:11:15.90\00:11:17.24
No, you should treat
them as Christ witness,
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it's an easy
thing to figure out.
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And we humans
were great about rules.
00:11:22.08\00:11:24.41
We have a whole church manual.
We have a whole policy manual.
00:11:24.45\00:11:27.52
And when someone is in dispute,
00:11:27.55\00:11:30.15
how often is it that
you don't take the steps
00:11:30.19\00:11:32.45
to do Matthew 18.
00:11:32.49\00:11:33.82
And it's easier
to throw the baby out
00:11:33.86\00:11:35.42
with the bathwater.
00:11:35.46\00:11:36.89
But it's just one of the things
that I like harping back on.
00:11:36.93\00:11:40.60
Now let's get you onto...
00:11:40.63\00:11:42.86
I think you're
right on the money there.
00:11:42.90\00:11:44.63
But I haven't lately heard
any legal developments on this,
00:11:44.67\00:11:49.37
but I know this mean moves
00:11:49.40\00:11:51.77
toward holding
the church culpable
00:11:51.81\00:11:55.11
for promises and expectations
that members might have had.
00:11:55.14\00:11:58.48
Yes.
00:11:58.51\00:11:59.85
So like let's say, for example,
00:11:59.88\00:12:02.32
member has an expectation
00:12:02.35\00:12:04.29
of certain
programs being offered,
00:12:04.32\00:12:07.26
and the church
changes their mind
00:12:07.29\00:12:10.19
or change in leadership
00:12:10.23\00:12:11.56
and they don't
wanna do that anymore.
00:12:11.59\00:12:12.93
You know what,
00:12:12.96\00:12:14.30
court's not gonna get
involved in that at all.
00:12:14.33\00:12:15.83
Not yet, but it was
tied to another funds
00:12:15.86\00:12:20.54
that they had
contributed, and they...
00:12:20.57\00:12:22.90
In other words,
there was an essence,
00:12:22.94\00:12:24.94
I don't remember the word,
00:12:24.97\00:12:26.31
but in essence a
breach of a verbal contract.
00:12:26.34\00:12:29.28
Breach of trust. Yes.
00:12:29.31\00:12:30.95
So on the areas
of breach of trust,
00:12:30.98\00:12:32.58
like a donor's intent of like,
00:12:32.61\00:12:35.08
"I will give the church
of Lincoln Steed $5 million
00:12:35.12\00:12:39.22
to erect a statue
to religious liberty
00:12:39.25\00:12:41.02
in Town Square."
00:12:41.06\00:12:42.39
Thank you.
00:12:42.42\00:12:43.93
Sounds like a good one.
00:12:43.96\00:12:46.93
Anyway... I like that.
00:12:46.96\00:12:49.16
And then instead,
00:12:49.20\00:12:52.77
you squander the money
and go to Saudi Arabia,
00:12:52.80\00:12:56.14
get a harem, I don't know.
00:12:56.17\00:12:58.27
Well, now you're really entering
00:12:58.31\00:12:59.64
into dangerous territory.
00:12:59.67\00:13:01.01
But anyway,
00:13:01.04\00:13:02.38
it's an obvious breach of trust.
00:13:02.41\00:13:05.01
It's an obvious
breach of the gift.
00:13:05.05\00:13:07.05
I believe a court
will step in that case,
00:13:07.08\00:13:09.12
but a court won't go
00:13:09.15\00:13:10.49
into adjudicate different
issues of church belief.
00:13:10.52\00:13:14.79
Well, that's good.
00:13:14.82\00:13:16.16
So, yes, I think
00:13:16.19\00:13:17.53
you've settled it very
nicely in half a program
00:13:17.56\00:13:20.20
so we might have to go
off in another direction.
00:13:20.23\00:13:22.46
You know...
00:13:22.50\00:13:23.83
But this is a
very serious issue,
00:13:23.87\00:13:26.70
not necessarily in the
classic religious liberty sense.
00:13:26.74\00:13:30.17
And earlier, you
touched on something
00:13:30.21\00:13:33.14
that I know from Australia
00:13:33.17\00:13:36.58
was part of a dynamic,
I was down in Australia,
00:13:36.61\00:13:39.51
decades ago now working
for a while in our church work,
00:13:39.55\00:13:44.02
and there was a huge
dispute within the church.
00:13:44.05\00:13:46.35
And part of it
ended up in court,
00:13:46.39\00:13:49.36
two parties, not
just two individuals,
00:13:49.39\00:13:51.93
two parties,
00:13:51.96\00:13:53.29
took the issue to court
and the judge quoted the Bible,
00:13:53.33\00:13:57.57
and he said, "It's a disgrace
that you come before me."
00:13:57.60\00:14:00.07
He says, "I'm
dismissing this case.
00:14:00.10\00:14:01.57
You go and
settle this privately."
00:14:01.60\00:14:03.04
Yes, exactly.
00:14:03.07\00:14:04.71
And, you know, it
does say in the Bible,
00:14:04.74\00:14:06.14
you know, "Why are you going
00:14:06.17\00:14:08.08
in front of what they
call the heathen court system?"
00:14:08.11\00:14:10.65
It can be very
scary to be a witness
00:14:10.68\00:14:14.65
or even a party in
a civil court matter.
00:14:14.68\00:14:17.75
Good time to take a break.
00:14:17.79\00:14:19.25
So stay with us,
00:14:19.29\00:14:20.62
and we'll be back shortly
to continue this discussion.
00:14:20.66\00:14:23.09